allroad tdi engine cuts out with no warning!!

[2.5tdi]

Help.
my 2.5tdi engine has run like a dream and with no warning or hint of trouble i backed out of a parking space and the engine cut out and refused to start, the engine would turn over but nothing more.
By the time the rac turned up (about 20 min) the car started and ran long enough to get it 2-3 miles up the road to the local garage. But as there's no substitute for experience has anyone had the same trouble or give any clue's before i go in for open wallet surgery!
many thanks

[Crasher]

First of all a fault code read and if that fails to show a code, I would suggest having a new ECU really fitted. This can be a symptom of the main injection distribution pump failing which is wallet open hart surgery followed by intensive care and long term aftercare.

[2.5tdi]

thanks for the reply crasher.
garage cant find any error codes but have only been able to go so far.
getting a 2nd opinion in the next couple of days.
do you know the part number for the ecu relay?
thanks

[Crasher]

What is the year and engine code?

[2.5tdi]

sorry I should know better!
its a 2005 model and the engine is an AKE, i dont have the rest of it written down and the car is not back yet.
Thanks for your help.

[Crasher]

2005 AKE engined Allroad? Only possible up until 2003. PM me the reg number.

[2.5tdi]

ok, had bvr automotive from stoke out to do the full diagnostic and as you said in your first thread crasher it wasnt long before i heard it sounds like the pump. 3 hours later most connections checked and fine so it must be the pump. finally checked the earth connections again,one last chance to start it and it fired up and is running fine and the pump sounds fine. can only put it down to a bad earth? fingers crossed. but got to say very impressed with the service and attitude from DAVE BEAVER, would recommend him to anyone.

[2.5tdi]

ha, famous last words!!
got car back as reported in last post and running fine, put the fault down to a bad earth or similar but to be fair to dave the mechanic he was'nt happy as it just seemed to start working and not found a reason. he checked error codes etc all fine, was advised to keep a eye on things and let him know how it went.
next day, wont start so gathered information based on and around injection pump failure. have have new edc on pump and still no joy.
the mechanic has spent today tracing potental bad connections and checking wiring.
the error codes coming up are as follows,
01318 j399 no signal intermittant
01318 j399 no communication intermittant
65535 internal control module memory error
18056 power train databus failure intermittant
18062 check dtc of instrument cluster intermittant
17978 engine start blocked by immobiliser.
if anyone has any thoughts i would be most grateful, and hopefully the guy trying to fix it will be on here over the weekend and add to this with a better run down of what we have covered today.
thanks to all in advance.

[Crasher]

Possible water damage in the ECU box.

[BVR.Automotive]

2.5tdi....

Post your car details on here, list the fault codes again and i will try my best to give a full rundown of what i have done!!

everyone else....

If you are any good with wiring diagrams get the engine ecu diagrams printed off and try and follow what i have done so far when i do a write up later this weekend.

So far i am drawing blanks with this problem, perhaps i've missed something obvious??? Any ideas would be welcome (other than throwing £1000 control units at it to rule them out!)

I will list full rundown by the end of the weekend.

Dave

[BVR.Automotive]

Right you will need the correct current flow diagram from elsa to follow this....

First go out to the car that will not run, checked fault codes and found the following faults:

01318 j399 no signal intermittant

01318 j399 no communication intermittant

65535 internal control module memory error

18056 power train databus failure intermittant

18062 check dtc of instrument cluster intermittant

17978 engine start blocked by immobiliser.


After checking the feed to the fuel pump (J399) and finding 12v I checked the earth point 13 (current track 22) - all seemed ok but i cleaned it up and refitted it, switched on ignition and vehicle started fine and all faults erased.

After various starting cycles it was all fine and i followed the customer home. Had confirmation later that evening that the problem was sorted and all was still ok.

[a8 tech]

The pump is failing and crashing the drive train hence immo issues as well when attempting to restart.What voltage did you find at the earth track as thats a 4.0mm main earth for the wiring loom,don't think that's the cause i think the pump is failing.J248 control unit switches earth to j322 and j17 so it makes sense if the fuel pump fails j248 crashes the switched earth is lost and drive train looses coms with the control unit so immo cant communicate to restart hence blocked.
You may have some joy using measured value block 18 for ecu and pump voltage and mvb 125 for drivetrain signal

[BVR.Automotive]

....or so we thought.

Next morning vehicle fails to start again.

Customer sent the fuel pump cont unit J399 (removed from fuel pump) to a specialist for recon and it was then sent back and refitted - vehicle still would not start.

I returned and checked faults - same faults as before and none start.

The following earth points have been confirmed to be ok - 85 (crimped connection within loom) and 13 (main body earth under expansion tank)

Ignition voltage is fine at engine control unit J248 (terminals 18, 1,2, 37), fuel punp control unit J399 (terminal 7), and J17 (fuel lift pump relay - input voltage)

The following connections between J399 and J248 are all good J248 T82/J399 T2, J248 T83/J399 T1, J248 T93/J399 T8, and J248 T114/J399 T5.

Instrument cluster has fault stored with no communication to engine ecu.

The engine ecu is not switching fuel lift pump relay J17 (no earth path to J428 T80) but relay operates with manual earth.

Any one got any bright ideas or had this fault before, i am due to call back this week and might of missed something obvious (you never know!)

Thanks in advance - Dave

[BVR.Automotive]

The pump is failing and crashing the drive train hence immo issues as well when attempting to restart.What voltage did you find at the earth track,don't think that's the cause i think the pump is failing

That was my initial thought too...

0v at earth on fuel pump (J399 T6)

Customer has had fuel pump control unit reconditioned so ruled that out.

[Crasher]

I agree with A8 Tech, to me that is the pump failing, I do not trust these ECU repair people as far as I can throw them, I have a 95% failure rate with these types and I have tried many and only one has given me results that worked. I would fit a new pump and take it from there.

[BVR.Automotive]

I agree with A8 Tech, to me that is the pump failing, I do not trust these ECU repair people as far as I can throw them, I have a 95% failure rate with these types and I have tried many and only one has given me results that worked. I would fit a new pump and take it from there.


Hi Crasher

I kind of agree and like i said that was my first thought. I am although reluctant to fit a hugely expensive part after it has just been "reconditioned" because i end up with a customer that has spent a fortune and his car still doesn't work.

It is a large amount of money to be playing with.

It may come to that and if it hadn't just been reconditioned then i would be willing to just fit a pump...

Anyone noticed anything i should of checked wiring wise??

[a8 tech]

sorry i will re post this as i had to swap my pc for car one
The pump is failing and crashing the can bus hence immo issues as well when attempting to restart.What voltage did you find at the earth track as that's a 4.0mm main earth for the wiring loom,don't think that's the cause i think the pump is failing.J248 control unit switches earth to j322 and j17 so it makes sense if the fuel pump fails j248 crashes the switched earth is lost and can bus looses coms with the control unit so immo cant communicate to restart hence blocked.
You may have some joy using measured value block 18 for ecu and pump voltage and mvb 125 for drive train signal
If you are switching earths manually to allow outputs and the faults are isolated with the pump itself the engine ecu is ok and the pump is defective but try to to get the car to fault whilst mvb 18 is active and voltmeter across the supply relay to see if the primary supply is failing or secondary,i suspect high resistance causing the failure of the earth sent from the ecu as if it was open circuit it would fail all the time.So my conclusion is the pump but it must also be noted that when diagnosing such faults its very hard to make the decisions and hopefully my input is taken as support and not criticism your hard work so far because we have all been there.The reason j17 has no secondary output is because the immo is blocked by the pump so the engine ecu will not release the signal one other thing check all associated wires for resistance and mutual shorts
Regards A8

[BVR.Automotive]

J322 operates fine - switched by engine ecu not manually.

J17 does not work - not getting switched earth from engine ecu - works when given manual earth.

Voltage at crimped connection 85 within loom - 0v

Voltage at body earth 13 - 0v

Also forgot to add that fuel pump makes a buzzing sound while J322 is operated, this noise continues if earth point 13 is disconnected although it changes tone very slightly when you connect/disconnect it.

I have to agree that it does sound like the pump is faulty but am really after different suggestions i haven't checked.

Hopefully the customer (thread starter) will be on soon with some details of where he sent the pump control unit to.

Dave

[a8 tech]

When it packs in can if you give j17 earth does it start up
when you turn the ignition on the engine ecu should send the earth signal to j322 when the ecu receives a terminal 15 supply,so that needs to be checked as j322 should then energise j17
Also you say the pump is recon but if this is correct the pump needs adapting to the immo (depending on year of manufacture)to allow can bus to start the engine so that recon sounds iffy to me and this can only be done by the dealer via online connection.
But saying all that if can signal is corrupted by j399 then earth signals will be redundant and none start
I would scope the can bus at pins 1,2 at j399,make sure everything is connected and look for a corrupt pattern

[BVR.Automotive]

When it packs in can if you give j17 earth does it start up

No - lift pump operates but that is all - nothing else is supplied by J17.

Dave

[a8 tech]

Check the can bus at j399 for corruption go to address 01 mvb 18 pay attention to 1 X X X X X X X CAN bus data wire defective



018 Injection pump
1) Injection pump supply voltage
[V]
2) Engine control unit supply voltage
[V]
3) Pump status word
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 No fault detected
X X X X X X X 1 Continuous current to quantity adjuster solenoid valve
X X X X X X 1 X Quantity adjuster solenoid valve defective
X X X X X X 1 X Injection pump speed sender defective
X X X X X X 1 X Injection timing defective
X X X 1 X X X X Commencement of injection not detected
X X 1 X X X X X Shut-off signal set
X X X 1 X X X X Engine speed not detected
1 X X X X X X X CAN bus data wire defective
4) Evaluation of engine speed sender pulses
0 0 0 0 One pulse outside, one pulse inside segment
X X X 1 No pulses outside segment
X X 1 X Several pulses outside segment
X 1 X X No pulses inside segment
1 X X X Several pulses inside segment

[BVR.Automotive]

lol sorry - have laptop on my knee watchin telly!!

Giving J17 a earth would not give J399 an earth.

J17 gets 12v in from J322 to both T2 and T5 of J17.

J248 gives an earth to J17 T4 which therefore gives 12v out of j17 T8 to fuel lift pump.

Am i missing something somewhere on wiring diagram? I can't see how it gives it an earth.

Dave

p.s. won't be responding so quick now caus i'm going bed lol

[a8 tech]

Sorry 87a is voltage out,got two lap tops on the go

[BVR.Automotive]

Sorry 87a is voltage out,got two lap tops on the go


:DYou had me worried for a bit then.

No worries thanks for the imput!

Dave

[2.5tdi]

sorry for the delay, the edc unit was sent to www.dieselpumprepairs.com (http://www.dieselpumprepairs.com).
having inspected the unit I was advised that there was nothing obvious at fault but that the units were suseptable to heat so they could check/ replace the components but this was my choice as they could not guarentee this would cure the problem but would allow us to cross it off the list.

[a8 tech]

This explains a lot.I suggest you replace the pump recon service at Audi is about £1200 with 1 year parts and labour.Audi no longer supply new pumps but send them away for full refurbish at approved agents,so far every one i have sent has been faultless with not one repeat failure.I think Dave has done as much as he can but you need to decide what you wish to do,for me you need the pump refurbished by approved agent
We do a lot of them lol

[Crasher]

A8, the genuine warranty is two years isn’t it?

I would get an exchange pump from Bosch.

[a8 tech]

not sure on the warranty crasher,half term break so can't confirm

[WIREY]

:beerchug:
ha, famous last words!!
got car back as reported in last post and running fine, put the fault down to a bad earth or similar but to be fair to dave the mechanic he was'nt happy as it just seemed to start working and not found a reason. he checked error codes etc all fine, was advised to keep a eye on things and let him know how it went.
next day, wont start so gathered information based on and around injection pump failure. have have new edc on pump and still no joy.
the mechanic has spent today tracing potental bad connections and checking wiring.
the error codes coming up are as follows,
01318 j399 no signal intermittant
01318 j399 no communication intermittant
65535 internal control module memory error
18056 power train databus failure intermittant
18062 check dtc of instrument cluster intermittant
17978 engine start blocked by immobiliser.
if anyone has any thoughts i would be most grateful, and hopefully the guy trying to fix it will be on here over the weekend and add to this with a better run down of what we have covered today.
thanks to all in advance.

I am experiancing same problem engine just dies ...did you fix the prob as my gararge seems to be at a lost

[a8 tech]

pump

[Crasher]

Agreed, pump and often there are no codes to support this-you have to gamble on changing it. If it runs on a sniff of ether then it is normally the pump.

[BVR.Automotive]

Hi all...

Going to take the pump off Tuesday. Customer has arranged to send the pump to a Bosch agent for complete recon.

May have it back for the end of the week.

Dave

[2.5tdi]

update.
fully reconed pump with warrenty, done by bosch supplier and no difference.
Not sure who's more annoyed me or bvr so on Dave's recommendation its booked it to main dealer next week.
any sympathy greatly recieved!!!!!!!!

[Crasher]

You both have mine, it’s horrid when you get one like this.

[melopll]

Hi

New to the forum and thinking about getting an A6 2.5TDI.

By reading the forum it seems that the pump deuce system is not used in the 2.5TDI.
Doesn't each injector have its own pump?

Because the VP44, looked from the pictures looks like a common rail pump. Is this correct?

Thank you.

[2.5tdi]

my only advice is dont do it.
go with the 1.9 or 2.0 litre units plain and simple.
my partner has a 2.0 a3 and it goes very well and before that she had a 1.9 a3 sold at 180k miles with very little in the way of issues other than wear and tear.
if you really want a v6 i believe that the 2.7 or the 3.0 are the units to go for.

[melopll]

my only advice is dont do it.
go with the 1.9 or 2.0 litre units plain and simple.
my partner has a 2.0 a3 and it goes very well and before that she had a 1.9 a3 sold at 180k miles with very little in the way of issues other than wear and tear.
if you really want a v6 i believe that the 2.7 or the 3.0 are the units to go for.

Hi,

Is the 2.5TDI PD or common rail?

What feedback do you have from the 2.5TDI? What is the BHP?

Thanks

[Crasher]

Just to confuse you, the 2.5 V6 TDI is neither PD (Pumpe Düse) nor CR (Common Rail), it is VEP (VerteilerEinspritzPumpe) or Distributor Injection Pump in English. The PS varies from 150 to 180PS (Pferdestärke), a German horse is slightly less strong that a Britisher!)

[melopll]

Just to confuse you, the 2.5 V6 TDI is neither PD (Pumpe Düse) nor CR (Common Rail), it is VEP (VerteilerEinspritzPumpe) or Distributor Injection Pump in English. The PS varies from 150 to 180PS (Pferdestärke), a German horse is slightly less strong that a Britisher!)

Hi Crasher

Thank you for the reply.

Regarding the DIP, could you confirm is a single pump that sends fuel to all the 6 injectors?

Do you have any feedback on anyone running this engine on Vegetable oil or Biodiesel?

It seems that in Germany, many people are very pleased using alternative fuel with this engine.

Thanks

[paul b]

Don't bother with biopiss. It will just clog up the fuel lines whether it is PD, CR or whatever.

See here (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=67130).

And here (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=41528) too.

To confuse you even more, despite the 2.5 TDIs not being a PD engine, because they do seem to have a few camshaft wear issues then it might be worth filling it with PD oil to provide additional protection.

I'm sure the 2.5 TDIs can be reliable. They're certainly lovely to drive, very fast. I'd steer clear of a Multitronic if you wanted an auto one, get the 180bhp version which will come with a Tiptronic gearbox.

[Crasher]

Regarding the DIP, could you confirm is a single pump that sends fuel to all the 6 injectors?

I think the fact it is a centrally mounted distributor pump is pretty self explanatory...

[melopll]

Don't bother with biopiss. It will just clog up the fuel lines whether it is PD, CR or whatever.

See here (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=67130).

And here (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=41528) too.

To confuse you even more, despite the 2.5 TDIs not being a PD engine, because they do seem to have a few camshaft wear issues then it might be worth filling it with PD oil to provide additional protection.

I'm sure the 2.5 TDIs can be reliable. They're certainly lovely to drive, very fast. I'd steer clear of a Multitronic if you wanted an auto one, get the 180bhp version which will come with a Tiptronic gearbox.

Hi

The links does not say much about what type of bio was used, if it was home made of made by stardards...

What I am trying to say is that, in Germany is possible to fill the tank on B30 and B80, if i remember correctly, and it does not happen that everyone using bio produced by standards, has issues with their cars.
Otherwise it would not even be for sale!

My understanding is that there is a little bit of confusion on what is sloppy home made bio with professional standard made one.

To confuse you even more... :biglaugh: I am not searching for a car that can run bio safely.

[a8 tech]

You both have mine, it’s horrid when you get one like this.
And me,these faults are nightmarish and time consuming,sometimes the way forward is by elimination and slowly isolating the fault to one area.

[2.5tdi]

the latest,
car has been dropped off at the main dealer.
And guess what, they say it needs a new injector pump, for the thick end of £2300.00
The problem is I had the current unit fully (as in everything but the casing) reconditioned by a bosch service agent and it is no better but because the diagnostic says its got a pump fault (01318 if i remember correctly) audi wont go any further unless they get to fit the pump.
Anyone got any ideas as im going mental!
ED

[Crasher]

I am not surprised, it is what myself and A8 suspected all along, I have been done the rebuilt pump route before and have suffered these traumas so now I will only fit genuine Bosch exchange units or preferably genuine VAG but a genuine exchange pump is £1600 so they want £600 to fit it?

[a8 tech]

Agree,genuine exchange unit all the way.Suspect some of the £600 includes time spent so far as well as remove and install.This week alone we have fitted 2 pumps with out issue both none runners first one B5 and the second B6 cab.
I would suggest you negotiate with the dealer for a reduced labour rate but they are bang on about not touching the pump if its not a approved repairers work as Crasher says they could spend a lot of time wasted on a duff pump.

[BVR.Automotive]

update.
fully reconed pump with warrenty, done by bosch supplier and no difference.
Not sure who's more annoyed me or bvr so on Dave's recommendation its booked it to main dealer next week.
any sympathy greatly recieved!!!!!!!!

You got my sympathy!!!

One of those horrible jobs for sure - hope that Audi are right with the pump for your banks sake.

[2.5tdi]

The re-con was done by a legit bosch service agent that came recommended, they replaced everything but the outer casing and this was inspected followed by a full bench test, the pump came back with 12 months warranty and are more than happy to speak to audi.
i've had injector pumps re built before on larger engines (400hp+)with good results so why should a vag unit be any different to mine re built?
My problem is that audi say that the pump might be the problem but they wont stand the price of the pump if it isnt unless dealer managment change there mind.
The reason it went to main dealer was the fact it was still throwing up the 01318 "pump not communicating" error code having had the pump done.
The other train of thought is take it back to the bosch agent and tell him to call me when the pump is communicating.

[a8 tech]

That would make sense,if the bosch agent can make no sense of the fault then the next step would be to check the wiring from the engine ecu and the pump including the condition of the pins,even though the wiring may appear ok there could well be a fault where the loom is chafing or mutual short that is only evident when the loom is moved or if the loom is exposed to high temperatures so i would suggest a separate loom is made up and run along side the existing loom to eliminate any possible wiring issue's.This is not as difficult as it may seem and some times its the only way to eliminate the wiring as peeling back the engine bay loom is unwise as well as time consuming.If the pump is in fact ok and the loom is ok including all earth points and 15,30 supply points then its logical the engine ecu may well be defective but i would only go for the engine ecu after all other possibilities have been eliminated.Time and money are required as there is no easy fix to this kind of intermittent fault.

[2.5tdi]

Here i am again.
Due to collect my allroad from another audi main dealer the only difference being i will be driving it and not carrying it on a transporter!
The problem was the ecu not the injector pump but its taken some finding!! glad i never let warrington audi fit the new injector pump for the £2300 they were quick to quote for.
So just wanted to thank you all for your input and advice.

[Crasher]

That is an unusual failure, they normally only fail due to water damage and even that’s rare, mind it is what I was thinking right at the beginning.

[WIREY]

:beerchug:
Good News Buddy hope all goes well, had the copy of the bill for my repairs that was done today.
New lifter pump and a couple of sensors cost the dealer £600

[taveirne]

Hi
I've had the same problem with mine over the weekend and the garage is also stumpted. If you don't mind me asking, how much did the new ECU cost you in the end?

Thanks

Adam

[WIREY]

Hi Adam,
No problem mate, it cost the garage I bought it from not me luckily .

I have just received a copy of the bill
2 fuel pump relays
found fuel in oil traced fault to faulty fuel lift pump.(SO3G145209C)
Replace fuel lift pump 1 fuel relay(373)
FUEL pump relay (614)
relay(395)

these all came to £513 with Labour

Hope this helps
.Ian

[micheal balbrig]

Here i am again.
Due to collect my allroad from another audi main dealer the only difference being i will be driving it and not carrying it on a transporter!
The problem was the ecu not the injector pump but its taken some finding!! glad i never let warrington audi fit the new injector pump for the £2300 they were quick to quote for.
So just wanted to thank you all for your input and advice.

For what its worth I have to say that this is a brilliant thread. great reading and lots can be learned from it. Best wishes to all for documenting
faults and for locating fault in ecu.

[a8 tech]

In defence of Warrington Audi its standard practise to ensure previous repairs are correct without evidence then its feasible for them to ask for either a guarantee for the pump or approved repair via Bosch agent contracted by Audi

[taveirne]

Hi again. Well my garage sent the ECU off for testing. After a while they found a problem and repaired it. It's been reinstalled but it's still not working. They've tested everything else and can't find anything wrong with it!
The only thing that I noticed that was different was that when going up a hill it started to choke in 4th as if about to stall but the revs were up at 2-3K. The more gas I gave it the more it choked but when I dropped it down to 3rd it was fine and then back into 4th was also fine.
I must have got 3 miles before it cut out again and then the usual cut outs about every 1-2 miles.
One other thing is that it will run for hours at idle...
Any advice or anything for that matter will be appreciated.
Thanks
Adam

[Crasher]

Possibly fuel distributor pump or EGR valve, does it belch out black smoke when it acts up?

[taveirne]

Not that i've noticed.

[taveirne]

A little update for you...
The garage had the car another week and still couldn't find anything wrong with it. They tested it and drove it for miles without a problem. I even went with them for a long drive and it was fine. I then drove it around for over 150 miles with no problems.
This morning I paid for the what the garage did (small amount of labour, ECU test & a new relay) and all was fine until this afternoon when it wouldn't start.
This was different as usually I can drive 2-3 miles before it cut out but this time it was if it had already cut out and I was trying to restart it. Again it started eventually but i'm back to square one.
This is getting very frustrating and i've now lost all confidence in the car.

[WIREY]

This sounds like how mine was I lost all confidence in mine too,
Since a new lifter pump has been fitted I have had no problems...touch wood,

Have travelled up and down the M1 and all has been fine,:beerchug:

[Crasher]

That may have stored a code now and even if not, it still helps. What is your cars year and engine code?

[taveirne]

It's a 2001 (51 plate) and the engine code is AWX

[taveirne]

Also when I try to start it now, after 10 seconds or so I get an oil warning. I checked the oil and it was low. I'm going to top it up soon and let you know the outcome.

[Crasher]

In that case it is a completely different engine and management system, I think you should start a new thread. The most common reason for the AWX cutting out and not leaving a fault code is the main ECU relay in the water proof (allegedly!) case in the plenum chamber. The oil pressure warning during prolonged cranking is perfectly normal.

[WIREY]

My car is a 54 plate 2.0 tdi A6 Diesel not sure on engine code.
I had it in the garage more than it was on the road , hopefully now sorted.

[Crasher]

My car is a 54 plate 2.0 tdi A6 Diesel not sure on engine code.
I had it in the garage more than it was on the road , hopefully now sorted.

Sorry, I was referring to taverine, my reluctance to over use the quote function.

[taveirne]

Ok. I'll start a new thread then. Sorry for hijacking this thread!

To finish what I said earlier the car took 1.5 litres of oil to get it back to normal level. The car did eventually start with a really lumpy idle. A little gentle reving and a couple of laps around my building at work and it settled down but was still not right. I got less than a mile away before it cut out and then got exactly the same distance back before cutting out again.

I ended up getting it recovered to my garage for them to continue the diagnosis. Thanks for the tip which i'll pass on to the garage.

[Crasher]

PM me a link to your new thread so I don’t miss it.