Brake help/advice needed!

[TekTalk]

Hi Folks...

Have just joined up, because I'm having a few problems with my RS6 brakes.

The pads and discs are in need of replacement, all round, and from main dealer this is expected to be about £1800 - ouch!

I don't mind the money, too much!, but am not too happy with how the brakes are anyway. So I'm looking into alternatives, and wondered if anyone can offer any advice?

A few questions I have;

Are A6/S6 discs the same as RS6?

Are there any alternative disc items available?

Has anyone experience of alternative pads?... I am currently looking at EBC Redstuff.


thanks in anticipation.

Russ

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Have just joined up, because I'm having a few problems with my RS6 brakes.

Strewth . . .


The pads and discs are in need of replacement, all round, and from main dealer this is expected to be about £1800 - ouch!

Are you sure the whole lot need doing? I just had my S4 serviced, and got a call from the *******, stating a few "problems", including both your front and rear pads need doing . . . "Oh yeah . . ." was my answer, 'cause I knew exactly how much meat was left on the pads. They then went on to state the rears were 80% worn, which I already knew, and the fronts were "also in need of replacement". I asked them again how worn the front pads were, and they eventually replied "oh, actually about 60% worn", which again confirmed what I already new!

I am aware of the stonking cost of discs and pads on the S/RS models!


I don't mind the money, too much!, but am not too happy with how the brakes are anyway.

OK, firstly, what don't you like about them? Are yours the six-pot front calipers? What exactly is wrong with them? Are the caliper pistons sticking? Have you had a recent brake fluid change? What are your tyres like - wear and make? . . . . So many answers needed!


So I'm looking into alternatives, and wondered if anyone can offer any advice?

A few questions I have;

Are A6/S6 discs the same as RS6?

No, the S6 discs are smaller than the RS6, and the A6 would be smaller too.


Are there any alternative disc items available?

There are some alternatives, straight from the VW Audi parts bins.

Firstly, the RS6plus came with drilled discs . . .

What about the latest S8 anchors, though the standard S8 discs are not drilled, there may be a ceramic brake option.

Is there anything on the leviathon that is the Q7?

The new RS4 has an option for ceramic brakes (see my sig below ;) , in two weeks time, I should be able to geve you some feedback)!

On the VW Touraeg, there is a Brembo 6pot factory option, but the discs again arn't drilled.

Abt Sportsline do a Tourreg V10 brake upgrade, of drilled discs (and Abt stuff is pretty much spot on ;) ).

Finally, there is the VW Phaeton W12 brakes, which also look suspiciously like the new RS4 anchors - info here: www.oemPl.us (http://www.oemPl.us).

That is all the OEM stuff I can think of.


Has anyone experience of alternative pads?... I am currently looking at EBC Redstuff.

Dunno. Aftermarket stuff aint my scene, so I'll not comment. Others may be along with their own answers to that particular issue.

HTH, rgds

[TekTalk]

Are you sure the whole lot need doing? I just had my S4 serviced, and got a call from the *******, stating a few "problems", including both your front and rear pads need doing . . . "Oh yeah . . ." was my answer, 'cause I knew exactly how much meat was left on the pads. They then went on to state the rears were 80% worn, which I already knew, and the fronts were "also in need of replacement". I asked them again how worn the front pads were, and they eventually replied "oh, actually about 60% worn", which again confirmed what I already new!

I am aware of the stonking cost of discs and pads on the S/RS models!


Sadly, they do all need doing... the vehicle now has about 75k on the odometer... and at the last MOT (xmas) I had a little look underneath at to see how the brakes were doing. The rear had only a few mm of meat left on them, and although the front had a bit more because I changed them last year... both sets of discs are worn, so would change front pads if doing discs.

Plus, I now have a bit of a vibration... some of it is constant, when going through 70-80mph (which I believe is that the wheels maybe a little out of balance on the rear), but also there is a slight judder under braking... although not really present at low speed (<50mph).




OK, firstly, what don't you like about them? Are yours the six-pot front calipers? What exactly is wrong with them? Are the caliper pistons sticking? Have you had a recent brake fluid change? What are your tyres like - wear and make? . . . . So many answers needed!


Tyres... Goodyear Eagle F1. Used to run Pirelli, but found that not only did they wear out in 5k miles, but the grip in the wet was rubbish. Changed to Goodyear at last change, because I used F1 Eagles a lot on other vehicles I have had such as Esprit Turbo, 200SX, TVR, and have been satisfied with both wear and all round grip - although I must say, in the dry the Pirelli is probably the better.

The brakes are just standard... 4 pot vented disc front, 2 pot vented disc rear. The thing I don't like about them is the fade when braking at high speed - I don't generally fly around all the time, but as you will well know the idea of the RS vehicles is that the power and handling are there if you decide to drive shall we say more spirited! In those cases, particularly straight line speed, the brakes seem to fade when coming down from a high speed - which can be a bit hairy at the time that you need the brakes most!

Overall, I drive reasonably quickly but am not a heavy brake user as I prefer to judge the road in advance rather than rely too much on stamping the brakes hard all the time.




No, the S6 discs are smaller than the RS6, and the A6 would be smaller too.


I thought that would be the case, but it's always nice to be told.





There are some alternatives, straight from the VW Audi parts bins.

Firstly, the RS6plus came with drilled discs . . .

What about the latest S8 anchors, though the standard S8 discs are not drilled, there may be a ceramic brake option.

Is there anything on the leviathon that is the Q7?


Would any of these fit straight on to the RS6?



The new RS4 has an option for ceramic brakes (see my sig below ;) , in two weeks time, I should be able to geve you some feedback)!


Now I'm turning green :biglaugh:



On the VW Touraeg, there is a Brembo 6pot factory option, but the discs again arn't drilled.

Abt Sportsline do a Tourreg V10 brake upgrade, of drilled discs (and Abt stuff is pretty much spot on ;) ).

Finally, there is the VW Phaeton W12 brakes, which also look suspiciously like the new RS4 anchors - info here: www.oemPl.us (http://www.oemPl.us).

That is all the OEM stuff I can think of.



Dunno. Aftermarket stuff aint my scene, so I'll not comment. Others may be along with their own answers to that particular issue.

HTH, rgds
again, does anything fit directly on to the RS6?

Many thanks for your time, and advice, it is much appreciated.

regards

Russell

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Sadly, they do all need doing... the vehicle now has about 75k on the odometer... and at the last MOT (xmas) I had a little look underneath at to see how the brakes were doing. The rear had only a few mm of meat left on them, and although the front had a bit more because I changed them last year... both sets of discs are worn, so would change front pads if doing discs.

Plus, I now have a bit of a vibration... some of it is constant, when going through 70-80mph (which I believe is that the wheels maybe a little out of balance on the rear), but also there is a slight judder under braking... although not really present at low speed (<50mph).

OK, but I'm sure you understand that by replacing heavily worn out discs and pads, the braking performance will obviously improve, back to the "new car" standard (providing you have no siezed caliper pistons) ;) ;)


Tyres... Goodyear Eagle F1. Used to run Pirelli, but found that not only did they wear out in 5k miles, but the grip in the wet was rubbish. Changed to Goodyear at last change, because I used F1 Eagles a lot on other vehicles I have had such as Esprit Turbo, 200SX, TVR, and have been satisfied with both wear and all round grip - although I must say, in the dry the Pirelli is probably the better.

You really should try the latest Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 - I can assure you, you will not be disappointed, particularly high speed wet cornering! ;)


The brakes are just standard... 4 pot vented disc front, 2 pot vented disc rear. The thing I don't like about them is the fade when braking at high speed - I don't generally fly around all the time, but as you will well know the idea of the RS vehicles is that the power and handling are there if you decide to drive shall we say more spirited! In those cases, particularly straight line speed, the brakes seem to fade when coming down from a high speed - which can be a bit hairy at the time that you need the brakes most!

OK, then it does seem that an "upgrade" rather than mere OEM replacements are required. The most obvious suggestion would be to look at the "RS6 plus" brakes, as they are drilled, which helps with cooling. It would also be OEM (of sorts ;) ), so shouldn't be classed as a modification, hence no insurance issues!


Would any of these fit straight on to the RS6?

That, I can't give you a definate answer, though anything from the VAG parts bins would usually work. Sadly, I tend to avoid modifications!

Other more specialist forums, such as http://www.rs246.com/, or http://s-cars.org - may be able to offer more detailed info.


Many thanks for your time, and advice, it is much appreciated.

No worries, pleased to offer some food for thought.

[TekTalk]

Many thanks for all the information Sean...

A lot of food for thought!

I have looked into drilled, and even slotted discs, and agree that it would improve cooling... not sure it would be enough though. I think you are right in that in order probably to get exactly what I am after, upgrade is what is needed rather than OEM - having looked into it though, I am not sure it is really worth it. Initial cost will be around £3000, and then onward cost will be higher than OEM, i.e. if and when the discs need replacing again; it's another £3k!

A friend did say something useful to me though, which is similar to your train of thought - "surely if Mr Audi had thought the brakes weren't good enough, he'd have fitted better ones". Which is something I have had to think about, because in truth I think it only the guys that put an RS6 around a track that will get any serious benefit from such an upgrade.

Therefore I'm back to OEM stuff... I have decided that I will fit standard stock discs, maybe put some phaeton scoops on it to aid cooling - although I'm not too sure on that one yet, and then will fit some after market pads such as EBC or OMP. Being a slightly softer pad compound, ceramic in most cases, I should see benefit from reduced dust (something I have always hated about Audi's) but also a bit grippier feel to the brakes. Acknowledging that the pads will wear out quicker because of the compound is fine... I'd rather replace pads than discs.

So... I'm currently digging around to get the best deals I can on standard discs, and after market pads... so far, I have discs down to around £800 for a full set, and pads down to about £200 for a full set - a lot better than I had hoped for really, and much better than originally quoted!

I must thank you again, and all others, for the information provided - it has been most helpful, and informative, and helped me reach the right decision!

Kind regards to all.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

OK, I understand your thoughts.

What does confuse me though, is your car. Is it the RS6, or the RS6 plus, that you have? As the plus model had upgraded brakes over the "standard" RS6 model.

The RS6 plus was released in 2004, as a final swansong for that particular bodyshell. It had a few more horses under the bonnet, better brakes with cross drilled discs front and rear. Visual differences are the "black optic pack", which consists of matt black front grille surrounds, matt black side window trim strips, matt black roof rails, matt black tailgate lower edge, and matt black exhaust tailpipes.

If yours is the earlier, roughly 2002 RS6, then the later spec brakes would seem to be a much better option.

Rgds

[TekTalk]

OK, I understand your thoughts.

What does confuse me though, is your car. Is it the RS6, or the RS6 plus, that you have? As the plus model had upgraded brakes over the "standard" RS6 model.

If yours is the earlier, roughly 2002 RS6, then the later spec brakes would seem to be a much better option.

Rgds

Mine is definitely a 2002 RS6, not the RS6 plus... it doesn't have the features you mention.

The looking around I have done into the drilled discs generally indicate that they don't make a huge difference, other than deglazing the pads, the overall cooling effect is still lost because of them being floating.

(please do excuse my ignorance here, I do have a rough idea what I've typed above, but not being the truly technical kind, anything more detailed would probably lose me! - I can hold my own though when concepting and designing databases for large corporations, so each to their own I guess ;) )

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Mine is definitely a 2002 RS6, not the RS6 plus... it doesn't have the features you mention.

OK, thanks for clarifying that! ;)


The looking around I have done into the drilled discs generally indicate that they don't make a huge difference, other than deglazing the pads, the overall cooling effect is still lost because of them being floating.

Righty, I think you may have this issue slightly confused ;) . The "deglazing" of the pads usually comes from grooved discs, not drilled! Grooved discs offer no real performance gain, and should only really be sold to the style peeps!

Drilled discs on the other hand do offer valuble gains. The hot gasses which are produced under heavy braking (the excess build up which cause brake fade), are allowed to "bleed" through the drilled holes, into the central vented ribs, and dissipate much quicker than compared to non-drilled discs. The drilling, per-se, doesn't actually offer any "increase" in brake performance, but they do help to maintain fade-free braking under heavy brake loads!

Floating discs merely aid with brake noise reduction.

HTH


(please do excuse my ignorance here, I do have a rough idea what I've typed above, but not being the truly technical kind, anything more detailed would probably lose me! - I can hold my own though when concepting and designing databases for large corporations, so each to their own I guess ;) )

Aye, databases really loose me!

[devonutopia]

Thought about looking into AP brakes? Might be cheaper to replace the whole lot, than just get bits from the dealer. And although it's quite a posh car, I imagine the disks and pads can still be sourced through a branch of GSF, or other motor factors (I get 10&#37; off for being a member of elsewhere ;))

What about porsche brakes?

Tell you what - I'll swap you my 4 pot brembos, for your 4.2 V8 TT ;)

[TekTalk]

Righty, I think you may have this issue slightly confused ;) . The "deglazing" of the pads usually comes from grooved discs, not drilled! Grooved discs offer no real performance gain, and should only really be sold to the style peeps!

Drilled discs on the other hand do offer valuble gains. The hot gasses which are produced under heavy braking (the excess build up which cause brake fade), are allowed to "bleed" through the drilled holes, into the central vented ribs, and dissipate much quicker than compared to non-drilled discs. The drilling, per-se, doesn't actually offer any "increase" in brake performance, but they do help to maintain fade-free braking under heavy brake loads!

Floating discs merely aid with brake noise reduction.

HTH


I must say thanks for all the information you have given me, it really is helpful to speak to someone who understands these things - computers being my bag tends to make me confused easily by technical things ;)

Given everything you've said above... I think you are right, and I now understand the difference between drilled and grooved - and am more keen to improve the feel and performance of the brakes, so heading down the style peeps route is not for me.

I best start digging out quotes for drilled then I reckon, still keen to go for softer pads such as EBC redstuff, reduced dust is a big bonus but I'd rather it eat pads than discs.

regards

Russ

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Thought about looking into AP brakes?

Now they are seriously good kit, but do they come with the long-lasting road dust seals, or the more "basic" race seals! If they only come with the latter, you'll soon get to know your calipers intimately! :beerchug:


Might be cheaper to replace the whole lot, than just get bits from the dealer. And although it's quite a posh car, I imagine the disks and pads can still be sourced through a branch of GSF, or other motor factors (I get 10% off for being a member of elsewhere ;))

GSF don't really do stuff for the S & RS models. I can never get stuff for my S4 from them! :aargh4: How's this 10% gotten , then? ;) I can sometimes get discount, but only after getting down on both knees, and saying three hail marys :D


What about porsche brakes?

Another very viable option. I do however, think there is quite a bit of upgrade scope from the OEM VAG parts bins! ;)


Tell you what - I'll swap you my 4 pot brembos, for your 4.2 V8 TT ;)

That sounds like a good idea . . . . NOT ! :D Actually, do you wanna buy my S4?, the RS4 is now built ;)

[TekTalk]

Thought about looking into AP brakes? Might be cheaper to replace the whole lot, than just get bits from the dealer. And although it's quite a posh car, I imagine the disks and pads can still be sourced through a branch of GSF, or other motor factors (I get 10% off for being a member of elsewhere ;))

What about porsche brakes?

Tell you what - I'll swap you my 4 pot brembos, for your 4.2 V8 TT ;)

Sadly, most bits for the RS6 are dealer only - which is not generally a problem, but the cost of discs is £1k! Even Brembo don't list them, although I have now located a company up in Yorkshire (through eBay ironically) who will supply the discs for £650, and even do the lot complete with pads for £865 - inclusive of VAT!

Not seen anything in AP brakes, so I'll now head off and look into those too - many thanks for the info. It's pretty much the whole lot that need replacing, and although I've looked into alternatives such as Movit,it's difficult to justify the cost even when it is a reasonably nice car - I don't run it on a budget particularly, but at the same token I don't want to throw money at it all the time... it earns it's keep!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I must say thanks for all the information you have given me, it really is helpful to speak to someone who understands these things - computers being my bag tends to make me confused easily by technical things ;)

No worries. It is actually quite refreshing to find someone who listens, understands and appreciates other posters opinions and experiences - rather than merely letting the thread degenerate in to a slanging match! ;)

Oh, and I'll know who to turn to when I win the contract for the Governments replacement computer system for the failed Child Support Agency! :D ;)


Given everything you've said above... I think you are right, and I now understand the difference between drilled and grooved - and am more keen to improve the feel and performance of the brakes, so heading down the style peeps route is not for me.

Well, I'm pleased to have helped with your decision.


I best start digging out quotes for drilled then I reckon, still keen to go for softer pads such as EBC redstuff, reduced dust is a big bonus but I'd rather it eat pads than discs.

OK, that sounds very sensible. Keep us informed of your progress.

Oh, BTW, if you have found my advice "educational" and generally helpful, I would appreciate if you could add a very brief comment to my reputation. Click on the "snowflake" icon, next to the warning triangle, on the appropriate post. Ta. ;) :beerchug:

[S2AVANT]

OK, thanks for clarifying that! ;)



Righty, I think you may have this issue slightly confused ;) . The "deglazing" of the pads usually comes from grooved discs, not drilled! Grooved discs offer no real performance gain, and should only really be sold to the style peeps!

Drilled discs on the other hand do offer valuble gains. The hot gasses which are produced under heavy braking (the excess build up which cause brake fade), are allowed to "bleed" through the drilled holes, into the central vented ribs, and dissipate much quicker than compared to non-drilled discs. The drilling, per-se, doesn't actually offer any "increase" in brake performance, but they do help to maintain fade-free braking under heavy brake loads!

Floating discs merely aid with brake noise reduction.

HTH

Drilled discs suffer from cracking around the holes.
How do floating discs work again?
They allow the alignment of the disc with the pad without having to align the bearing which has runout when hot.
My brakes aren't noisey, and mine aren't floating.
I have fitted RS6 plus calipers to an S2 BTW :D