Anyone got ETKA or similar? Alternator possible money saver.

[Col]

Been meaning to post up about this for ages.

I don't know how the one way clutch operates on the alternator but would assume it would rotate one way but not the other?

Anyway.

My 2002 AWX engined Passat has a re-manurfactured alternator on it which is date stamped 1994 which I assume is off something really old ! It was on the car when I bought it and I've done close to 50k in the car with no problems, the car is now at nearly 150k by the way.

The pulley on this freely rotates both ways so I assume it does not have the clutch / non return mechanism.

The part numbers are
CA1541R-1
or
5 705541031487

I don't think these are VW / Audi part numbers but Hella numbers who's sticker is on it. I have looked at the plastic casing which is stamped as VW / Audi.

Questions are;

Can anyone identify or cross refernece this with ETKA ?
Can someone verify the correct operation of the clutch (assumes it works as I've described above?)

There may be an opportunity of sourcing this / these alternators cheaper than the current nightmare that exists for a DIY alternator swap with the pulley mechanism or non DIY abilty (without specialist tools) to change it.

I do hope this makes sense ?

[Crasher]

Your pulley is solid both ways, not free both ways or else it would not charge, on a freewheel pulley, one way will turn even if the internals of the alternator are held still with a non conductive stick.

I can’t ID that CA reference number from home, I need some software I have on my work PC, none of those number is a VAG number.

The 2002 AWX/AVF Passat could have been supplied with a Bosch or Valeo alternator in either 90 or 120 amp versions. The manufacturers ID’s for these are

90 amp Bosch 0 124 325 049
90 amp Valeo 0 254 2239
120 amp Bosch No info
120 amp Valeo 0 254 2234

[Col]

I didn't try and hold the internals still when I did the belt back in the summer. The pulley did rotate both ways really nicely with no roughness or noise. I'm not looking or needing to change it by the way.

I just find it odd that I have what seems to be a 15 year old alternator on my car.

If It does save a few quid if this is a cheaper fix as these cars are getting older its a bonus.

[stuart]

The "CA" number looks to me like the Hella exchange unit mumber...

[Col]

I suppose what I need to do is pull the tensioner up and test to see if the alternator is solid both ways (internals AND pulley) otherwise this is a non starter.

[caldirun]

I suppose what I need to do is pull the tensioner up and test to see if the alternator is solid both ways (internals AND pulley) otherwise this is a non starter.
Even if the pulley is solid both ways it could be a seized one-way (sprag) clutch as this is how they fail. If the pulley is solid start saving for a tensioner, pulley and splined tool (GSF, GSF, Ebay).

[Col]

Even if the pulley is solid both ways it could be a seized one-way (sprag) clutch as this is how they fail. If the pulley is solid start saving for a tensioner, pulley and splined tool (GSF, GSF, Ebay).

I don't need to.

Back in the summer I changed the aux belt and tensioner with the expectaton of having to swap out the alternator.

It was the plastic tensioner wheel that was at fault on mine.

The alternator was fine.

The point of this post is to possibly establish and identify what alternator I have on my car. My suspicions are that I have an old alternator on the car that was replaced prior to me buying the car (almost 50k ago). The suspicion is that it may be an older style unit without the one way clutch that may be cheaper and easier to replace, especially as these cars are getting older.

[caldirun]

I don't need to.

Back in the summer I changed the aux belt and tensioner with the expectaton of having to swap out the alternator.

It was the plastic tensioner wheel that was at fault on mine.

The alternator was fine.

The point of this post is to possibly establish and identify what alternator I have on my car. My suspicions are that I have an old alternator on the car that was replaced prior to me buying the car (almost 50k ago). The suspicion is that it may be an older style unit without the one way clutch that may be cheaper and easier to replace, especially as these cars are getting older.
The point of my post was to establish that, a solid pulley (be it a cheapo replacement or a one-way that has seized) will wreck the tensioner sooner or later.
Think of the crank running at 800 RPM, it is driving the alternator at 800 x crank pulley dia/alternator pulley dia, or more than 2000 RPM approx.
The alternator rotor is massive (probably even more so on the 120Amp alternator) and has great momentum. You turn the key to off and the crank stops very quickly, the alternator runs on and trys to drive the crank pulley through the tensioner side of the belt, the belt straightens out and a large shock travels through the tensioner, pulley bearings & centre bolt, eventually causing one or more to fail. If you listen to you engine and get someone to turn the key to off you may hear a squeal as the alternator drives back through the belt, if so you have a solid pulley and trouble on its way!

[Col]

Some very good points there, thank you.

I get no squeel at shutdown at all but I may have to investigate this a bit further. When I took the old tensioner off the bearing was a bit rough and it would chatter slight as you span it by hand (off the car).

The reason I did it was I'd get an occasional cyclic squeel on a cold start for a few minutes.

I think what I need to do is back off the belt tension and verify if there is a one way clutch on this alternator.

By the sounds of it, even if it doesn't, from your description above it may be a false economy anyway if the tensioner is going to be quickly wiped out by an alternator without a one way clutch.

I'll post up any findings once I've checked the alternator (which may not be for some time now, with going back to work tomorrow :mad:)

[caldirun]

Some very good points there, thank you.

I get no squeal at shutdown at all but I may have to investigate this a bit further. When I took the old tensioner off the bearing was a bit rough and it would chatter slight as you span it by hand (off the car).

The reason I did it was I'd get an occasional cyclic squeal on a cold start for a few minutes.

I think what I need to do is back off the belt tension and verify if there is a one way clutch on this alternator.

By the sounds of it, even if it doesn't, from your description above it may be a false economy anyway if the tensioner is going to be quickly wiped out by an alternator without a one way clutch.

I'll post up any findings once I've checked the alternator (which may not be for some time now, with going back to work tomorrow :mad:)
Food for thought, Col
You don't need to touch the tensioner just use a kind stick (plastic or wood etc) to turn the alternator fan (don't go in too deep there are delicate windings behind!), it should turn clockwise but not anti clockwise.
I am all for saving money but £50 for a pulley and tool that may save a couple of £78 (from GSF, £104 VW without the tensioner pulley!!!)tensioners seemed a bargain

[Col]

Noted and agreed.

[Crasher]

Another side effect of a seized free wheel pulley is that it can make the crank pulley come loose.

[caldirun]

Another side effect of a seized tensioner is that it can make the crank pulley come loose.
Should that be alternator pulley rather than tensioner?

[Crasher]

Yes, sorry I had the fact that my cars tensioner is twitering on my mind, I keep trying to remember to order one.

[Col]

Right then, update.

Put the car in 4th and pulled and push it whilst watching the alternator.

The internals move in BOTH directions.

My conclusion therefore is that this alternator DOES NOT have the one way clutch.

To further add to the above. I changed the aux belt with the full expectation that I'd have to renew the alternator as I was getting a bit of noise from that area.

It turned out to be the plastic aux tensioner pulley. I changed the tensioner complete with the mounting bracket spring / damper and most importantly the long bolt.

When I did this back in the summer I span the alternator by hand more than once both ways and it was as smooth as silk.

The car had done over 140k when I did this with over 40k of that driven by me. I don't know when the alternator would have been changed to this re-manurfactured one but would assume the original factory fitted one fell victim to a dud one way clutch. I've since done about 5k since fitting the new belt and tensioner with no problems at all.

My view is therefore;

If the one way clutch fails, you will need to new clutch assembly as a minimum plus the purchase of the tool to fit it (or the cost of a garage to swap the pulley, that is if they would!) in addition you will need a new belt and a new tensioner. There is a possibility that you would need to replace the alternator itself as well, but not definite.

Chances are the alternator that is on mine is going to cost the same as a replacement clutch and the tool only. The good thing is that you won't get a problem again from this clutch as it isn't fitted !

The only downside is that as described above by Calrirun in that there could be a 'shock' to the tensioner as everything abruptly stops.

However, cars of yesteryear didn't have an alternator clutch and didn't suffer. Admitedly they probably didn't quite such a delicate tensioner assembly, in fact years ago you'd use a pry bar to move the alternator and then tighten up a bolt on a sliding adjustment bar! Quite why this was abandoned is beyond me, it was far more robust.

Anyway, the shock at shutdown may wear the belt a bit quicker but in theory it should be taken by the spring / damper on the tensioner.

Need to track down that Hella number to an OEM part number now.

[caldirun]

Your alternator was changed just before you bought the car (it was sold because it was making strange noises from the engine), in 40,000 miles it stuffed your tensioner. How much did you pay for your tensioner? how much trouble was it to fit?
If a new alternator pulley and tool was bought it would cost £50 and its not much more work to fit (one nut and one plug to undo on the alternator plus the centre bolt on the fan and the bolts on the alternator).
If the tensioner goes in another 40,000 miles you are into another £75, my pulley might do another 100,000 miles (thats 2.5 tensioners for £50 as opposed to £187.50 and more work)
Saving £25 now will cost you £137.50 in the long run.
If you are going to drop the car soon it makes sense, I suppose.

[Col]

This time I don't agree, I think this is a potentially cheap fix to yet another one of VAGs (or Boschs) design flaws. Design flaw or over engineering that doesn't work.

The reason I changed it was that it was making a 'bit' of noise. I am fanatical about maintaining my car and the 'bit' of noise most people wouldn't have even noticed.

I could probably be driving it with the old tensioner still insitu today. Most normal people who aren't as obsessive would be.

Only a long term test will reveal if this is a goer. I don't intend on changing it anytime soon.

The other factor will be the cost of the alternator which is fitted to the car, which at the moment is still unknown. Strange really as the car had a full dealer history when I bought it !

[caldirun]

This time I don't agree, I think this is a potentially cheap fix to yet another one of VAGs (or Boschs) design flaws. Design flaw or over engineering that doesn't work.

The reason I changed it was that it was making a 'bit' of noise. I am fanatical about maintaining my car and the 'bit' of noise most people wouldn't have even noticed.

I could probably be driving it with the old tensioner still insitu today. Most normal people who aren't as obsessive would be.

Only a long term test will reveal if this is a goer. I don't intend on changing it anytime soon.

The other factor will be the cost of the alternator which is fitted to the car, which at the moment is still unknown. Strange really as the car had a full dealer history when I bought it !
Do a search, there are instances of people having to fit new cooling fans and rads because they were not as obsessive as you.
The big worry is the price for a service ex. crank and fitting if the pulley works loose and stuffs the mounting diameter, I have not found this but Crasher is a rock solid ref.

[TornadoTDi]

Can anyone identify or cross refernece this with ETKA ?

www.vagcat.com - register there for free and then pick your model :)

[Crasher]

The big worry is the price for a service ex. crank and fitting if the pulley works loose and stuffs the mounting diameter

I have a tool for re-cutting the face of the crank in situ, it has saved many cranks and customers a lot of money.

[Eddie]

in other words take belt of alternator ram screwy up against cooling fins if pulley turns anti clockwise its ok if not its goosed

[stonedagain]

If you put your finger through one of the holes at the front of the alternator, you should be able to turn the armature in one direction, but not the other.

[Col]

Appreciate the advice gents but I've already checked it and the alternator does not have the one way clutch on it.

As above and as it is already on the car, I'll obviously be keeping an eye on it and will report ill effects or problems.