MK3 TDI turbo dying... remap or hybrid turbo?

[leoninanegg]

:D Hello, 1st time poster, I've read much of what's on offer here and it's a great place to soak up info, I've lost many hours and I'm still very green.

Anyway, I've got a 1997 Golf GL Tdi, AHU 90bhp (non PD I gather), and the turbo is well on the way out I think. It has that low whistle and it's pokier sometimes, but mainly feels like it's not boosting like it should.

So... I have to get a new or re-con turbo, and I'd also like to get some more poke. Would I be better off putting in a stock turbo and getting a remap than putting in a hybrid turbo? I guess the first would be lots cheaper and I don't need loads more poke, just a working turbo and a bit more poke probably ;)

I was looking into a remap and keep hearing wonderful things about Jabba but it seems they don't work on the MK3 TDI. Can anyone recommend anywhere? I'm in the midlands but would travel.

My brother has offered to fit the turbo, he is the only person I know with a bit of turbo knowledge, he spends far too much time tinkering with his Celica GT 4. It's either that or get the turbo replaced and engine remapped at the same place but I guess it's megabucks to have a turbo fitted?

Any help would be greatfully received, although I'm not doing anything kinky... :p

Rob

[bora(ing) nick]

If you do decide to get an uprated turbo and a remap, make sure the remap is last thing you have done so the computer can take into account the hardware changes you have made.

Nick

[onzarob]

I would find out the fault first before modifying. It could be the turbo, or MAF or EGR system.

I not sure how many miles your cars done, but a new MAF can make the car feel like its been remapped;)

Rob:D

[VanWheeler]

I was looking into a remap and keep hearing wonderful things about Jabba but it seems they don't work on the MK3 TDI. Can anyone recommend anywhere? I'm in the midlands but would travel.
Rob

Hi Mate,

Call Jayson @ ChippedUK www.chippeduk.com (http://www.chippeduk.com). He'll be able to sort you out. Think you'll find it's a chip on yours (could be wonrg though) Either way he's based in bromsgrove and is one of the best.

Cheers Mark

[leoninanegg]

Cheers guys,

What is a MAF and EGR system? I guess I should maybe ask VW to take a look at it to see what they think, ask one of their techies to take it for a spin. Quote for the work, and then get some quotes from local companys. My bro reckons it has 10-20k left in the turbo but says it's well on the way out :( It's done 144k miles. Tbh I prob need to sort out the suspension too, it's a bit loose, would like to make it a bit more stiff but not look like a boy racer in the process.

Mark, thanks for the info, I've sent Jayson some mail, I note you are affiliated with chipped uk, hope I can trust your recommendation! ;)

Rob

[VanWheeler]

Mark, thanks for the info, I've sent Jayson some mail, I note you are affiliated with chipped uk, hope I can trust your recommendation! ;)

Rob


Hi Rob,

You can mate, he is one of the best about. Been doing this stuff for years. Does the maps to the Alfa BTTC team, does the maps for the Jag sports range and remaps every Ferrari in the country that goes through the dealer network. He know's his stuff trust me.

Cheers Mark

[leoninanegg]

Ok Mark, well I look forward to hearing back from him, if Chipped UK is anything like Jabba or Allards (other highly recommended places) then I won't hold my breath for a reply :p

[Chipped UK LTD]

Hi there,
I tried to reply but i think your email bounced back to me.
If you call me on either 01527-579345 or 07815-501867 i will be able to answer all your questions.

We are however moving to a new location (although only 1 mile from our current workshop) next week.

This is into a new state of the art workshop of much bigger size to provide more services to our clients.

[vagjunkie]

I drive a mk3 tdi as well.:beerchug: with the type 1z enginejust another 90bhp. I swapped my injector nozzles for the 0.216 out of the 2.5 transporter along with a remap managed a rolling road verified 146bhp with the standard turbo. while still return 45mpg. My turbo is on its way out also I'm lookin to fit the turbo and inlet manifold (mk3tdi is too restrictive) from a 130bhp passat or a4, mk4 golf turbo will not fit.this should take me to about 180bhp, anthing above this will melt pistons.

[leoninanegg]

Hello :beerchug: clinky, clinky!

Mmmmmm... 146 bhp would be sweet! Can I ask how much I'd have to pay for some 0.216 injectors? Would I have to mod anything else to cope with that sort of power increase? I'm aware that the lifespan of parts will probably decrease if I thrape the balls off it non stop :D but that's to be expected.

I'm trying to assess costs but this sounds like a good option, although my bro keeps going on about I'd be better off getting a hybrid turbo because I'd be getting more power for the same boost, thus safer for the engine?!

Chipped UK have given me a number for their turbo people so I'm gonna give em a bell and get some costs from them. Chipped UK have also offered to have a quick spin of my car and try and confirm if the turbo is indeed dying and not problems with the MAF or EGR.

[vagjunkie]

you might want to upgrade the brakes, I fiitted g60 discs and s2 twin pots possibly the best mod I've done. I can get whiplash under braking but unless your car is abs equipped beware in the rain. I was lucky to break a vento for the abs system, very easy to fit because apart the coms link and the warning light on the dash the loom is independant from the rest of the car. before I fitted this I was sliding all over the place in the rain.
Apart from a free flow exhaust I haven't upgreded anything else in relation to the drive train but I have replaced the gear box due to leaving first gear at the end of a gravel lane one rally weekend. I have to point out my car has 152k on the clock and has been driven hard most of its life, 15k since its been modified. You can change the nozzles instead of the whole injector. I live in northern Ireland and bought mine over here.I paid £200.00 for the four brand new nozzles and apart from having to start the engine without injector clamps to get them out of the head its a twenty min job. Replacing the nozzles and not the whole injector means lke mine your car will look standard under the bonnet.:D

[leoninanegg]

Mine isn't abs equipped, and I'm not sure I'd wanna go to the trouble of buying and fitting it. I'm really not a mechanically minded person so I either have to blag favours or pay for such things! I'm actually not a turbo nutter ******* though, and don't leave it till the last split second to brake, but having said that no doubt I could get caught out with the added acceleration I add. Maybe I'll just have to be nice and careful till I can afford to uprate the brakes, if I do it at all that is.

My suspension slows me down a lot to be honest, lots of roll, does me head in. So that's next on me list after the turbo / injector nozzles / remap. Jeez this is gonna get expensive... Must curb my herbal interests...

What's a free flow exhaust? Is that a naughty one without a cat?

Still haven't priced up stock turbo & nozzles against hybrid turbo... I'm on the case albeit in a lazy half assed way (it's not like I've got the cash waiting else I'd be all excitable) ;)

[tornadored7]

Regarding your turbo;

I think spending money on a new turbo might be a little premature.

Carefully checkout www.tdiclub.com, and you'll see lots of postings about TDI owners who have symptoms that appear to be sick turbos, but actually aren't. If you study the site and postings, you'll see that it's not the turbos themselves, but normally the boost control path.

Things to check (maybe in order are);
1) Sooted/Carboned/Greased up Air intake Manifold
2) Sooted/Carboned turbos
3) MAF (Mass airflow sensor)
4) Vacuum and pressure hoses that goto the N75 and the MAP
5) N75 valve

Replacing the turbo is likely to be the most expensive option, and not necessarily a solution.

I had similair symptoms, and naively thought that the Turbo was at fault. Following the advice of some of the far more knowledgeable members at tdiclub.com, I checked the pressure/vacuum hoses going to the MAP, and the N75, cleaned the MAF and N75 electrical connections.

I also drove with the N75 (electrically) disconnected for a while.

Finally with the engine thoroughly warmed up, I drove the car in 3rd gear taking it just below the redline ~4500 RPM, for several minutes.

WARNING: __ONLY__ DO THIS IF YOUR TIMING BELT IS IN GOOD CONDITION or HAS BEEN RECENTLY REPLACED and YOU HAVE CHECKED YOUR OIL LEVEL.

After cleaning out the engine and turbo in this fashion, I could really feel the turbo boost and hear the whistle.

For full details see;
[URL="http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=165937"]

If you have any doubts ask someone knowledgeable here, or on http://www.tdiclub.com

[tornadored7]

Sorry, my posting in tdiclub didn't hyperlink properly. Let's try again;

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=165937

[leoninanegg]

Thanks very much TR7 :)

I looked at tdiclub before but didn't pay it much attention because it seems to be based in the states, and I wasn't sure if we'd be talking about exactly the same models and such. Maybe the same but the US model has a large chimney on top to put out as many greenhouse gases as possible... :p

I'm going to have a proper read through when I get myself a few hours to spend on it.

I will mention all the relevant bits to my bro see if he can check them out for me, but I CAN hear a whistle, I'm just lead to believe I shouldn't be hearing as much whistle as I am.

I don't know if this is normal, when I plant me foot the turbo whistles but it's not like a constant whistle, but then I'm not sure if it's supposed to be. Say I'm in third gear, the turbo winds up then winds down a bit then winds up. Almost like it's a little imaginary whistle car changing up the gears - ok so that's a rubbish description . Dunno if that makes sense. I thought it would be a constant rise more or less, whilst I had me foot put down. As you can see, I know buggerall about these things... :aargh4:

I had the cambelt done when I bought it a few months back so I should be able to get away with that 4500 RPM endurance test! I think I'd be cringing the whole time but if it's in the turbos best interest I'd be up for it!

[tornadored7]

Hi Leon...,

Yes the states guys do produce more GH gases than we do, but one of the sucesses of capitalism is that as economies prosper they get better at poisoning themselves and any one else around them.

Sorry for the 'Mortgaging the future' digressesion ...

I've found pretty much all of the states side TDI stuff relevant to UK/Euro models, such that I effectively think they are both the same car.

Might be an to record the sound that you're trying to describe into MP3 format, and including that in a posting to TDIclub.com. There seems to be a pool of knowledgeable and widely experienced TDI mechanics, owners and enthusiasts.

From my 10 years of owning a Golf TDI, I would say that if you are concerned about the sound that turbo is producing then it may very well be a turbo issue, however if it is related to lack of power / turbo boost it is likely to be a boost circuit/hose issue (that I described).

A good starting point is to use VAG-COM to check for any stored fault codes (DTCs) in the ECU. (Semi version of VAG-COM downloadable from http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/download/.

You should really buy some VAG-COM leads from RossTech, but for the short term there are some half functioning ones available from eBay (i.e. VAG-COM OBD2).

In my case the error code was;

00575 - Intake Manifold Pressure
17-10 Control Difference - Intermittent

This error code directly relates to the following post in the TDIclub;
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=75959

You need to determine whether you are lacking turbo power/boost or your turbo is squeeling and making bad noises (hence the suggestion include an MP3 recording of your turbo).

OK, be VERY careful revving your engine. I only push the engine hard/rev it when the car is driving on the motorway.

1) Check Oil level, and make sure there are no leaks
2) Ensure Timing Belt is in good condition / NEW
3) Gently warm up your engine to the midway temperature
4) Don't go straight for 4500 RPM, rev up slowly holding it at 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000 RPM for a few seconds.

I only kept up 4500 RPM for about 15 seconds, then slowly released engine speed.

Be hard with your engine, but treat it with respect.

If you want a second (driver's opinion) of your turbo, message me beforehand if you are in the London area and I'll happily try and help.

Hope you make some progress towards a solution

[leoninanegg]

To be honest dude, I'm not sure I'd be able to pick the noise up if I tried to record it with my mobile.

I took it round to the guys at Chipped UK who did me the favour of plugging their laptop in. The only fault it reported was 'intake manifold pressure' - i think it was low.

My bro thinks that it points towards an air leak and that it's probably gonna be quicker and easier to replace all the hoses than to spend hours trying to locate it. I'm reading with interest that link you put up, has very probably saved me hours of searching, thank you so much! :D

I'm up watching the F1 now.

My bloody MK2 Golf on Ebay didn't sell. Pah!

Rob

[tornadored7]

:Blush: Hi Leon...,

You're more than welcome. I'm glad to hear that you're not going straight for a replacement turbo, for the reasons previously highlighted. Would be interested in knowing how you progress.

Incidentally, it is important to note that a large part of the power diagnosis procedure is applicable to both MK3 and MK4 Golfs.

[leoninanegg]

:beerchug: I'll be sure to post again when I've made some progress.

Following payday at the end of the month I'm gonna get me a Haynes manual and go and sit on my brothers doorstep ;)

Might take some saving tho *sigh* But I will report back in!

[mojogoes]

Not only will we be able to do first and second stage chip tuning we will also have the capability to take on the type of motor that has been highly modified........not only this but i have on hand a turbo company who can and will be able to make any spec vnt or wast-gate unit a customer wanted.

I will also give out my advice on what i would or wouldn't use in making and have the best and most cost effective mods (biggest bang for the buck ) to fit in to the smallest and larger budgets.......just drop me a PM or e-mail me at stephen.moses@ntlworld.com i will be able to give you a definate date on when this will all happen although we are doing stage 1 and 2's right at this moment.

[Rake]

And if you want nozzles - I can supply 4 x .216 nozzles at £175 delivered from UK.

[tornadored7]

Hi Rake,

For those of us 90 BHP Manual TDi drivers (stock 0.184 nozzles), I'd be worried about overfueling with 0.216 nozzles. Without, carefully increasing boost, this could lead to soot/carbon build up.

A few questions please;
a) What car are you driving, engine code and what size turbo ?
b) How long have you been driving on 0.216 nozzles ?
c) Have you also remapped your ECU and boost ?
d) Under what conditions does your engine smoke ?
e) Are you logging any fault codes ?
f) Do you need to perform more frequent oil changes to compensate for potentially greated soot build up ?

It is also important to note, that new nozzles or cleaned nozzles will produce more power than older ones, with the same nozzle size.

[Rake]

Hi Rake,

For those of us 90 BHP Manual TDi drivers (stock 0.184 nozzles), I'd be worried about overfueling with 0.216 nozzles. Without, carefully increasing boost, this could lead to soot/carbon build up.

A few questions please;
a) What car are you driving, engine code and what size turbo ?
b) How long have you been driving on 0.216 nozzles ?
c) Have you also remapped your ECU and boost ?
d) Under what conditions does your engine smoke ?
e) Are you logging any fault codes ?
f) Do you need to perform more frequent oil changes to compensate for potentially greated soot build up ?

It is also important to note, that new nozzles or cleaned nozzles will produce more power than older ones, with the same nozzle size.

Hi Tornadored7

I've only given half the story - the rest is in the pro's and cons of tuning thread at the top of this section.

In answer to your questions.....its a long long story.

I drive an ACV coded 2.5 TDI, stock power is 102 and it just wasnt enough for me, I hated labouring up hills whilst others were whizzing past me, so when a friend called and asked about tuning our cars to 150 bhp I said lets do it.

there began a long road to finding the right tuners, parts and how to mod a Transporter in a way that to our knowledge was a first in the UK at least. .....

this lead to a huge amount of work and travelling that resulted in 2 x T4 transporters sporting 155bhp and clean. We now call the process Project Power.

turbo is a K03 standard....

I've now covered 20K miles on my set of .216's aka PP502's and all miles have been trouble free.

The ECU has been remapped by wayne schoefield of chipwizards, who has since done over 20 T4's as a result of our research. Obviously boost has been adjusted at all rev ranges necesarry.

The engine only smokes on lag - i.e. before the turbo has had time to spool up to boost, or when you bot her hard.....and then its a puff that is shortlived. so thats all of a few seconds.....

We - all 28 project power users are logging no fault codes at all.

one thing to bear in mind is that as well as remapping - one needs to adjust the idle fueling which is a 5 min job on VAG COM.

I send out a how to with the nozzles to forum members that wish to install them.

As to more frequent oil changes - I would recomend that to any user of a souped up vehicle anyway. its not just the soot build up - its also the extra heat that makes me want to do this....I love my engine and my vehicle to death now and would reccomend the mod to any TDI user.

lets face it the USA guys have been doing the nozzle mod for ages. Its about time it made its way over this side of the pond.

I ended up doing group buys of nozzles from japan for the other forum users on the T4 forum - this has now been repeated quite a few times as it has proven very popular.

Thats why I still have nozzles in the UK. It was more a friendly act than a money spinner - at 220 quid for a set of 5 nozzles - its defo no for big profits ! but it does give peeps an alternative to ebay stuff and gives peeps a point of contact in the local area as opposed to the USA or wherever...

hope that answers your questions

sorry if I rampled on ! I'm still excited about the power.

Next on the agenda is a bigger turbo for 200 + bhp.....

All the best.

ron.

[leoninanegg]

Hiya,

I said I'd post any progress, and althought there has been very little I thought I'd report in. I've just had no money to do anything yet :(

But I have had some symptoms become apparent on a couple of occasions.

The first time it happened when I'd been driving for about an hour and I'd pulled out to overtake whilst going up a bit of a hill. The second time I hadn't been driving long but I'd put me boot down when going up quite a steep hill. So it seems to happen when the turbo is under a heavier demand.

The revs drop and it just loses nearly all of it's acceleration. It will keep slowly building speed but it doesn't have that surge and was taking say 30 seconds to get from 40 to 50mph, maybe longer. It remains like that until it's been parked up and left to cool down for a while. I got stuck behind some classic car whilst driving through Wales recently. I was there for bloody ages! :p Oh well.

I'm sure I read about those sorts of symptoms elsewhere on here so I'll go take a dip

[vagjunkie]

hey sorry I've been of line for a few weeks been working away. The turbo's on the mk3 golf are farely bulletproof as long as you change your oil regularly and give them a chance to cool down before you turn the engine of, thus reducing oil carbonisation. Mine had similar symtoms to yours it turned out to be malfuntioning n75 valve and a split turbo hose. If you look at your engine you'll see the boost pipes running over the gearbox side of the engine at the manifold side check the one leading from the turbo this is most likely to split first. You might have to remove the hoses, it was only after removal and carefull examination I found the split. A rubber hose is a lot cheaper than a turbo. You might also wana check your cat isn,t blocked I,ve seeen this on a few mk3's, you can easily break the guts out without harming the engine and release a few horses in the process do wear a dust mask though as your lungs wont like dust this generates. Mine has done 60k without the cat and still passes mot. When your losing power do you notice any black smoke?

[leoninanegg]

Hiya,

I've not noticed black smoke on the two occasions it's gone into limp mode. I've noticed black smoke occasionally when I first put me foot down in a journey. But only very occasionally noticed that.

Right... I've been a bit busy, but finally managed to drag the car over to my brother's who carried out the checks in that list of things to check if you have the LOW INLET MANIFOLD pressure fault.

He used a gauge and a tee and made sure that the hoses held pressure, he seemed happy that they weren't leaking. He cut a few of the hoses back a bit to make sure they sealed properly, cos they were a little worn just at the end. The only hose he wasn't ahppy with was the red hose that connect to the N-75 valve, it was kinked right round and seems like it wouldn't have been allowing decent passage. He had to re-route that hose a bit, but now it isn't folded right round on itself as it connect to the N75 valve.

While he was at it he took of the MAF sensor and cleaned the screen at either end of it. I didn't think they looked particularly blinded but they were definitely blacked up and are now nice and clean and free-flowing.

We did the drive around tests watching the gauge as well. APart from having to drive with no wipers in the rain (cos the gauge was held under the one wiper) everything appears to be fine. The gauge flicked around a bit cos it probably wasn't the best type for what we were doing, but seemed to do what was expected at each point.

I haven't driven it that much since, but it seems fine. I tried to get it to go into limp mode again but going up a hill in 5th gear and booting it but it just pulled. I'll repost after I've driven it round for a few days. Was thinking I should ask Chipped UK to clear the fault codes and drive it around for a while and see if the fault code is still there.

[leoninanegg]

Well, yes, it definitely is better at the moment, whether it was cleaning out the MAF sensor or unkinking the red turbo hose, or a combination of both, it's pulling nicely all the time, and smoothly, not in little bursts.

I guess I really need to get my fault codes reset and see if I'm sorted or not.

[leoninanegg]

Right then...

Got Chipped UK to clear my fault code history, drove it around for another week, got them to check it again and it hasn't reoccurred. So fingers crossed it's sorted! :D

I'm just pondering if I want to do the injector nozzle replacement and the re-map, or whether to just have the re-map. 146 bhp would probably be lots and lots of fun. I'm wondering if I'll need wider tyres to get the power down though?! Wondering if I'll get loads of wheel spin.

Have you still got 0.216 injectors Rake? If not, does anybody know anywhere nice and cheap or someone who is setting up a group buy?