PDA

View Full Version : Referring to a "Dealer" as someone who steals



Crasher
20-09-2008, 06:35 PM
I have said it before but I will say it again, please can we refrain from calling VAG main dealers “********”. Not only is it wrong (for too many reasons to go into here) but it is also slanderous which in any other walk of life could easily be dealt with by a court of law should VAG UK feel inclined to do so, those using “tinterweb” feel that they are immune from such action and to a certain extent they are, at the moment-it is not a state of affairs that will continue indefinitely.

I am an independent VAG Specialist of 25 years and not connected with the dealer network in any way, in fact I often find them exasperating and incompetent when I do have to deal with them but I find it maddening when I see people use this insulting term and if I was in charge at VAG UK I would come down on people using this insult like a ton of bricks.

I would ask the moderators to consider action against forum members who use this insult in future if they have any respect for VAG UK. On another forum I go on that is mainly aimed at the trade, anyone who uses the term “********” has their post deleted.

From this point onwards I will not reply to ANY post by someone who insists on using this insult.

stuart
20-09-2008, 07:22 PM
Well said!

kenney
20-09-2008, 07:38 PM
From this point onwards I will not reply to ANY post by someone who insists on using this insult.
This goes for me too, for what it is worth

stuart
20-09-2008, 08:12 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, I am sure Crasher will know, it has been a long time since I worked for a VAG dealer, but, one of the main reasons dealers charge more than independants is there overheads.

For instance, an independant, to some extent can chose which equipment the want to purchase and use, and were they purchase it from. On the other hand, official dealers have no real choice in this matter, if VAG decide that the dealer network is going to get £20000 worth of tools for the latest car they bring out, they get them..... full stop..

These have to be paid for.... this is done through there labour rates...

Lets show a little respect for the main dealers, we have the choice who we use.....

Col
20-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Agreed.

However if a Dealer gives rotten service and exploits their customers through shoddy workmanship, overcharging or, even dare I say it, charging for uneccessary work then any forum members who have had these negative experiences must voice them.

If we collectively do not protest against these organisations, they will not improve and someone else may suffer the same treatment.

Please also consider the fact that the ocassional horror storey is exactly that, ocassional. It seems that 99/100 times there are no complaints and the customer (us lot) are satisfied, save for the wallet damage or the battering the credit card gets.

For that 1/100 negative experience, lets hear about it, let us all raise our collective awareness so that it does not happen to anyone else (one of us).

I would very much hope Dealers read what is said on this forum (by their customers) and more importantly take notice of what is being said. I know my local VW dealer is on here, Windrush (Maidenhead / Slough) and very good they are to.

stuart
20-09-2008, 08:52 PM
I don't thisnk Crashers original post is to stop members posting about bad dealings with dealers... just the use of the word "*******" :)

Col
20-09-2008, 08:59 PM
I don't thisnk Crashers original post is to stop members posting about bad dealings with dealers... just the use of the word "*******" :)

Thank you Stuart.

The reasoning behind my post was to make sure people continue to report bad service. Probably not neccessary as people are already quite vocal about it on here.

It is however nice to have the official line on this.

Crasher
20-09-2008, 10:21 PM
Yes the dealer overheads are simply mind boggling, I have seen some of the costs they incur from buildings, payments to VAG UK and to local government and they are wilting, even at £100 an hour for labour I do not know how the figures stack up to make the business work.

Yes people must voice their experiences at the main dealer, that way the overall quality will improve but even shear incompetence, stupidly, ignorance and arrogance (of which they are often guilty in my experience) does not add up to theft in the eyes of the law and that is my concern, calling them thieves.

As this forum is undoubtedly the most prominent of all dedicated VAG related sites it would be helpful as Col says to have some official feedback from VAG UK on those concerns raised by owners. From the one new car purchase I made with them, I would never buy another car from VAG UK again-the experience was simply unbelievable but that is another story.

Col
20-09-2008, 11:17 PM
As this forum is undoubtedly the most prominent of all dedicated VAG related sites it would be helpful as Col says to have some official feedback from VAG UK on those concerns raised by owners. From the one new car purchase I made with them, I would never buy another car from VAG UK again-the experience was simply unbelievable but that is another story.

That is a fantastic idea.

Imagine that, input from VAG UK.

It would be a very good PR excerise for them and would build confidence in them more than they probably realise.

Saying that, as large as this forum now is, the members on here only represent a tiny percentage of VAG drivers, so there is little incentive to get involved.

But as they say, word spreads.

kenney
21-09-2008, 01:01 PM
My place of employment,had both VW and Audi dealership up to Jan this year,when we had to surrender the Audi dealership.The cost of overheads for Audi is horrifying.The factory says jump and you got to jump,they take no consideration,for the size of the workshop,or the means for retaining the overheads.From what i understand we are not the only ones in the same situation.

smokey0123
21-09-2008, 04:56 PM
I am joining you on this 1 to Crasher. Same goes for people who use stupidly big text and CAPITALS to ask questions, I wont reply to them either.

Crasher
21-09-2008, 08:23 PM
Yes subtleness is they key. THERE ARE OTHER POSTS FOR OTHER WHINGES!!! :biglaugh:

a8 tech
21-09-2008, 09:14 PM
My support is added and i have been in Audi dealers since 1992.
I find some forum members ignorant to the good work that the dealers do and the warranty systems and good will we offer.I have helped many people on this site with my inside knowledge and personal experience which cant be bought or trained into people.This site supports excellent indie technicians and many master technicians that forum members would not normally get to speak to.Not forgetting there are sites on the net that charge for technical fixes and they aren't very good.Dealers are under a lot of pressure to achieve customer satisfaction and if you compare Lexus to Audi then think about this Audi sold more cars in the first quarter of the year than Lexus sell in a full year so they have less complaints as they have less models and less dealers to focus on.My job as a master technician would boggle most people and i have seen massive changes since 1992 and customer expectation is so high and also people have less patience but i expect that and that's why the dealers some times don't deliver as some none technical staff forget that they should be proud to work for the brand and deliver the best experience to the customer.

As for feedback
I have represented unnamed forum members for there issues with Audi uk to resolve the problems and i wont post my dealer location as its a private thing and Audi do watch the sites and act on growing issues ie q7 tyre wear and tt dash clocks rs6 drc.

Hex69
22-09-2008, 11:00 AM
Agreed with all that's been said so far.

Why should legitimate businesses with (as people have said) huge overheads, be tarred with criminals?

We all have an option whether or not to use dealers, and whilst I use independents for most things, whenever I've used the dealers, I've been always treated courteously, and the prices for the parts I've needed have not been exorbitant.

Also resent the use of the term '*********'. Again if you don't like their prices, vote with your feet. For many people they are convenient and easy to use, and while they don't claim to be the last word on everything, if you need an oil filter on a Sunday, where else is there to go?

Rant over :D

God, that's made me feel better :p

Crasher
22-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Also resent the use of the term '*********'.

I agree, I was going to mention that but I thought my rant had gone on long enough.:o I use them every now and again; their Plastic Primer is excellent, especially for my model making.

Sam
22-09-2008, 03:23 PM
The pedantic legal person in me would just like to say the following.

Slander - Harmful statements in spoken form (or otherwise)

Libel - Harmful statements made in a fixed medium (writing, signage, etc)

It's offensive however you dress it up, but it's libellous, not slanderous :)

/pedant out.

Thread stuck too

Hex69
22-09-2008, 03:38 PM
The pedantic legal person in me would just like to say the following.

Slander - Harmful statements in spoken form (or otherwise)

Libel - Harmful statements made in a fixed medium (writing, signage, etc)

It's offensive however you dress it up, but it's libellous, not slanderous :)

/pedant out.

Thread stuck too
Libellous has 3 'l's in it!!! :biglaugh:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rjo0604l.jpg
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rjo0604l.jpg

Crasher
22-09-2008, 04:41 PM
I’m not a lawyer, I am a mechanic. :biglaugh:

dah1164
18-11-2008, 02:12 AM
I would like to know of any vw owners who have had any bad experiences with vw dealerships out there.

dah1164
18-11-2008, 02:16 AM
I like to think that I have pointed out the good and the bad in my posts without using any defamatory statements.

Crasher
18-11-2008, 10:03 AM
What are you trying to achieve by gathering others who have had bad experiences together?

omegadirective
18-11-2008, 10:58 AM
What are you trying to achieve by gathering others who have had bad experiences together?


Good point. Unless you're trying to find places to avoid?

Only place I can completely and utterly tell you to avoid is Aberdeen Audi. Rude, rip off and careless. Things are very rarely done properly and shoddy jobs too. Not a VW garage I know...


Great place I was full of admiration for was Carlisle Audi. Polite, friendly, I got offered tea, biscuits and newspapers more than just once! There was a TV I could use, they showed me exactly what they'd done, pointed out the faults. Charged me little for labour (for a dealer) and even looked at a little niggles for me free of charge. They washed and valetted my car (it was FILTHY having just travelled 500 miles in it) and it came out remarkably spotless. I was thoroughly impressed. 10/10 for them!

audipersempre
18-11-2008, 11:35 AM
Does this mean I can't use the term 'shabby national' anymore for my bank :(

Bury St Edmunds Audi - first class service in every respect when we bought my other half the used A4 Cabriolet.

Stansted Audi - use them often for spares, repairs and servicing. A very good dealer with a high level of service in most respects. My only complaint is that they are poor at returning phone calls or calling when they say they will with update information.

Halfords - love 'em!! Always wandering around the stores picking up bits and bobs.

Crasher
18-11-2008, 12:07 PM
Does this mean I can't use the term 'shabby national' anymore for my bank :(

Halfords - love 'em!! Always wandering around the stores picking up bits and bobs.

It is up to you, I have no empathy for the Abbey National but I do with VAG dealers.

Often people refer to Halfords as Halfruads and that annoys me too as like you, I find them very useful for what they offer. I was in there last night to pick up some aerosol tins of Plasticoat black. They didn’t have any but arranged for me to pick two up from another branch. The staff aren’t all brilliant but they are by no means the worst. I went into Currys on Sunday and the three I went up to for help insisted on finishing the football conversion they were having before reluctantly asking me what I wanted and even then were completely hopeless. I remember standing in there many years ago when I had just moved house and I needed a new fridge and freezer like yesterday, I ended up waving my credit card in the air and shouting “would anyone like to take some money off me please!”

audipersempre
18-11-2008, 12:13 PM
I agree Halfords, Curry's, Dixon's etc don't have the best trained staff but these days they seem to at least be willing (unlike your story of a few yeras ago!).

How about 'Haynes book of lies' how do we feel about that one? Whilst not deadly accurate the trusty Haynes manual has helped me out of many difficult situations in the past.

Sam
18-11-2008, 12:35 PM
How about 'Haynes book of lies' how do we feel about that one? Whilst not deadly accurate the trusty Haynes manual has helped me out of many difficult situations in the past.

"Refitting is the reverse sequence to removal."

For others see here - Haynes Manuals - what those phrases really mean (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=53666)

euroslap
18-11-2008, 12:39 PM
I think the Haynes is great for reference (never taken as Gospel) but has helped me get my head round a number of problems. They don't do one for the VR6 but I've got the Mk2 manual which I refer to in times of desperation (they've got a lot in common with the Mk3) and obviously/foremostly you guys on here. :D

audipersempre
18-11-2008, 12:43 PM
That was so funny I hadn't seen it before and yes it pretty much sums up the first 20 years of my DIY mechanics along with my good buddy the Haynes manual. Luckily in the last 10 years I have switched to having specialist garages do the work :D

Crasher
18-11-2008, 12:50 PM
I was at a another forums gathering a few months back (it is mainly for “them int trade like”) and one of the chaps there was the man who has been responsible for most of the Haynes manuals over the thirty odd years. My favourite quote I seem to remember is “this task requires considerable manual dexterity”.

We had quite a long beer fuelled chat and I came away understanding why Haynes manuals aren’t the book they used to be, say back in the days of the Golf 1 and 2. Cars are so much more complex than they used to be with such significant variations between models that it is simply impossible to put a comprehensive manual together. We tried to work out how many pages a full Golf 4 manual would take. The largest part of any VAG manual these days is the wiring diagrams and when we had decided that even compressing VAG A4 current flow page into two per page and double sided printing, the wiring diagrams alone would fill over 500 pages! With all the engine, gearbox, brake, running gear variations we reckoned that a full and comprehensive Golf 4 manual could run to 2000 pages.

euroslap
18-11-2008, 12:55 PM
Just read the translations, soooooo true!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/sxlova07/misc/smiley-rofl.gif

audipersempre
18-11-2008, 12:57 PM
Wow that's an eye opener! Even if such a manual saw the light of day it would be on a CD which just isn't the same.

A Haynes manual should be paper with greasy finger prints, copper grease and blood stains over many of the pages :D

Must have been an interesting discussion though Crasher I imagine he had many motoring stories to tell.

euroslap
18-11-2008, 01:00 PM
I had a CD manual for my ZX7R and all you do is spend ages flicking through one page at a time trying to catch a glimpse of something that looks vaguely like the job you're attempting. A real pain in the Backside. :aargh4:

dah1164
19-11-2008, 02:55 AM
What are you trying to achieve by gathering others who have had bad experiences together?
I am just curious as to weather people on this forum have come across any good dealers. I like Audi's I think they are very good looking cars. It is a shame that this particular dealer has put me off buying another one. I get the impression that not many members on the site have anything warm or complementary to say about them. Happy driving

Crasher
19-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Must have been an interesting discussion though Crasher I imagine he had many motoring stories to tell.

Yes, it was until all the beer I had drunk took effect!

Hex69
19-11-2008, 02:36 PM
Yes, it was until all the beer I had drunk took effect!

Beer goggles eh!!

http://www.salamandersociety.com/toptens/joseph_smith_beer_goggles.jpg

Crasher
19-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Not quite, he was a bloke and I never get that drunk, not that I can remember anyway!

euroslap
19-11-2008, 02:48 PM
I've only just stopped giggling after the beer goggles comment. :biglaugh:

Crasher
19-11-2008, 04:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZZpsSOwxcw

Imran
20-11-2008, 11:27 AM
I would like to know of any vw owners who have had any bad experiences with vw dealerships out there.

ok, here goes, got a b5 vreg passat. the boot either wouldnt ock or when it did wouldnt open, boot solenoid or something? Took it to dealers who said, we have to break the boot to get into it!!! At which i replied, erm...take down the back seats, you will see i have already taken of the cover, you can see the boot lock mechanism, pull the metal pin, boot opens, there u go, response :- erm, ah, erm ok let me say before I told them what to do he was insisting like mad there is no way of getting into the boot without breaking it

When i bought the car, got a diagnostics done from them, said heating elements on heated mirrors had gone, I know this, thought ok cool, some time later when i went to get the boot sorted, asked them to do another diagnostics thought whilst its there, this time heated mirrors not flagged, queried it, told there working, produced the previous diagnostics report, he turned bright red and said erm, we didnt do a full diagnostics at which i told him to stick the diagnostics charge, at which point AND I QUOTE he muttered underr his breath 'effing paki!!! Manager comes out and insists i pay the diagnostics charge otherwise wont release car, now you tell me am I justified in using the term '********'

Crasher
20-11-2008, 02:28 PM
That is arrogance, incompetence and racism, not theft so no, you can’t call them ******** as they have not stolen from you.

danclyon
09-12-2008, 11:26 PM
I’m not a lawyer, I am a mechanic. :biglaugh:

One and the same right - you both fix something - just you fix the product, they fix the customer

Crasher
10-12-2008, 11:50 AM
Nothing like the same, they get paid far more than we do and we save lives, they don’t! :D

Eshrules
10-12-2008, 12:03 PM
The only thing dealers/mechanics and lawyers/solicitors have in common are their destructive effect on your bank balance :Blush2:

Sam
10-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Nothing like the same, they get paid far more than we do and we save lives, they don’t! :D

A common misconception ;)

Mini Mark
10-12-2008, 02:18 PM
i agree with what as een said. I was lead to beleive that may main dealers have the laour rate set y themaufacturers which is why maydon't carry out mots as the hourly rate is much higer then the cost of a mot

euroslap
10-12-2008, 02:22 PM
i agree with what as een said. I was lead to beleive that may main dealers have the laour rate set y themaufacturers which is why maydon't carry out mots as the hourly rate is much higer then the cost of a mot


W T F? :confused:

Mini Mark
10-12-2008, 02:34 PM
W T F? :confused:

I agree that people shouldn't be calling dealers '********' I was lead to beleive by the Audi dealer who looks after my mom and dads car that the hour rate is set by Audi (and as this is something like £90 plus per hour) they can not do MOTs which cost £50 and take an hour as they are not allowed to charge less then the hourly rate.

At the end of the day if you don't want to pay main dealer prices use a spealist or indipendent dealer. Companies have to cover their overheads otherwise they go out of business and small gargaes have far smaller overheads then the larger ones as with any business like my families business if we worked out of a shed rarther then a large factory with the machines hwe have we could charge less as the overheads would be less.

I have just brought a MKV Golf and have a price for a service and the main dealer is cheaper then a local VAG specialist:confused:

euroslap
10-12-2008, 02:38 PM
I just meant slow down your typing so that it makes sense. ;)

Mini Mark
10-12-2008, 02:43 PM
That'll be this stupid wireless keyboard batteries are dying...

Crasher
10-12-2008, 03:02 PM
I have just brought a MKV Golf and have a price for a service and the main dealer is cheaper then a local VAG specialist:confused:

That will be because they are fitting less parts, check what is being quoted for.

Mini Mark
10-12-2008, 03:18 PM
That will be because they are fitting less parts, check what is being quoted for.

Thanks for that I will look into it service not due yet I don't think the car has done 83,000 but the service indicator isn't showing (do all MKV golfs have service indicators??)

audipersempre
10-12-2008, 04:10 PM
The word '********' causes a stir on this forum not least with Crasher. My slant on it is that I understand the costs and why they are what they are my gripe is when I pay the premium to use a main dealer and get a sub standard service or sub standard work. That is when I think they are stealing from me.

Crasher
10-12-2008, 04:45 PM
Yes they have service indicators.

Audpersempre, that is incompetence, not theft!

Mini Mark
10-12-2008, 05:22 PM
Yes they have service indicators.

Audpersempre, that is incompetence, not theft!

Thanks Crasher I'm still learning my other car is a 1999 Classic Mini which I love but not really suitable for everyday use! And it doesn't have anything as modern as a trip computer etc still in imho one of the best small cars made:D

And I agree with that if they don't do a good enough job it's not theft it is incompetence and surely the garage has a complanits department?

audipersempre
10-12-2008, 06:08 PM
Agreed Crasher it just feels like theft.

sharalaxy
11-12-2008, 01:24 AM
Bad experience with Dealers Nottingham VW took a Passat in for non working front wiper motor, didn't have a courtesy car had me walk around for 2 hours, when I returned it wasn't quite ready.
When finally it was ready they presented me with a bill for the rear wiper motor which I questioned, they said clerical error and changed it to the front wiper on the bill.
When I got in the car they had changed a perfectly good rear wiper motor and the front one still didn't work at all.
They miraculasly changed the front one and refitted my perfectly good back one whilst I had a cup of coffee, took them less than 1/2 an hour strange I thought why was I being charged for 1.4 hours work?

Needless to say I don't go there any more I simply think they're incompetant.

Also on another occaision I was told the smoke from the Aux heater on the Sharan was something to do with the air conditioning!!!!!!! Seriously I walked out laughing.

NickPicks
22-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Can I make a suggestion that the autocorrection filter which replaces the S word with **** is modified to just say 'dealer'.

That way, those using the S word will have it corrected for them, and those who read it will just think that everyone says 'dealers'.

I find the ****** just highlights the word that's been corrected.

Sam
22-01-2009, 02:34 PM
I've searched for an addon that replaces the "offensive" word with a more pleasant one but there doesn't appear to be one for vBulletin.

If we were using phpBB then it could be done easily.

Sharkie
29-01-2009, 02:21 AM
I have used a few independent garages for servicing and minor problems and have never had the same level of customer satisfaction asI have had at a main dealers maybe i have been lucky in that respect I know there prices are sometimes high but sometimes it is worth the extra cost if you know of a good main dealership

a4suction
06-02-2009, 03:22 AM
Not really stealing are they. Just seen you coming......................;)

Crasher
06-02-2009, 09:22 AM
No and especially not at the moment.

WazzaS-Line
25-03-2009, 07:47 PM
Crasher, I would be inclined to agree with you, however, I have friends who have worked for and still work in VAG dealerships who have told me horrendous stories of what is basically "stealing"

Examples are:

1. V10 TDi Touraeg's brought in for services costing nearly a grand and only being biven a "tozzer". "Tozzer" is a term used to describe a service where a tech simply tops up th levels and has the car valeted !!!
2. Cars being MOT'd and given a "drive by" - referring to the car not actually being given an MOT at all and simply driven by the MOT bay.
3. Tarde in cars having service history "created" and sold on to traders.

A good friend who works at a VAG garage has stated on numerous occasions that Full Main Dealer History, in his opinion, isn't worth ****. He sadi he would rather take his vehicles to a trusted friends back stareet garage for a service.

I'm not saying they are all bad, but get in the real world, THIS goes on !!! hence the term ******** !!!

martin1810
25-03-2009, 10:15 PM
I am in the unusual position of visiting more workshops of all descriptions than most people are ever likely to do. I am absolutely certain that most technicians and most workshops are honest people who just do a job like the rest of us. The idea that dealers are out to rip off customers is nonsense. Everyone wants to get paid for their work and car dealerships are no exception.

a8 tech
25-03-2009, 10:28 PM
Well said Martin

Crasher
25-03-2009, 11:10 PM
Every walk of life has bad apples and the examples you quoted are not endemic of VAG main dealerships but classic examples of human nature, which isn’t always good.

peteo
26-03-2009, 09:48 AM
In issues like this, it is important to distinguish between the individual members of staff and the pricing and other policies of the dealership, or indeed, any garage.

I don't think that VAG garages are any worse, in the main, than other dealerships. What we do know, from all sorts of research ranging from trading standards through to the Consumers Association, is that, overall, the standard of work in British Garages is not good. If my memory serves, the Consumer Association has found, again and again, that only 1 in 4 garages do a halfway decent job.

I agree the use of the word "stealing" is emotive and, possibly, actionable in law without any proof.

What we can say, I think, is that most franchised dealerships offer poor value for money and that the work, especially on routine servicing, is not always carried out to the best of standards.

Eshrules
26-03-2009, 10:16 AM
What we can say, I think, is that most franchised dealerships offer poor value for money

Seems your PM was an empty promise ;)

If people see dealerships as poor value for money, they'll vote with their feet and supply/demand will ensure better value for money is earnt.

Crasher
26-03-2009, 12:10 PM
What we can say, I think, is that most franchised dealerships offer poor value for money

I don’t agree entirely, if you saw the ridiculous times that VAG make the dealers stick to on jobs (such as under six hours to change an Audi A4 2.4 V6 cabrio clutch and flywheel) then you can see why their labour rates are so high, the job times in the vast majority of cases are just not realistic, especially when a car is getting on a bit. The consumer is partly to blame for what is happening, they push for cheaper this, more equipment the other, better big boys toys to play with and longer intervals and then moan like buggery when what is ostensibly a massively updated 120 year old design fails and you can add to the users faults that they treat the things like a main battle tank, which they aren’t!

peteo
26-03-2009, 01:05 PM
I suppose one thing that tends to gall people in paying for any service is the labour charge. We know that if we pay £65 per hour, the technician is only getting a fraction of that sum in his pay packet. Obviously the labour charge also goes towards the overheads of the business such as heating lighting and rent and nobody should object to any business making a profit.

I am no expert in this area, I can only go on what I observe and read. I wonder if there is not a difference between specified repairs and routine servicing? When I was quoted £1,100 to replace a heater matrix on my old Bora, and when the guy explained exactly what was involved, I could see that it was a massive job. But when you take your car in for little more than an oil change and you walk away with a bill for anything between £150 and £200, then you do start to wonder.

zollaf
26-03-2009, 01:29 PM
when i was working as a mobile mechanic in milton keynes, i once had a customer moaning at me charging him £30 an hour. i looked down at the small pile of tools being used, breaker bar £85, few spanners, £10 each, ratchet £40, caliper rewind kit£100, etc. then the fuel to get to him, the van i had to keep on the road, etc... the costs soon add up. ive got a workshop now, and to be able to fix modern cars ive had to fork out £3000, yes 3 grand on a diagnostic computer to do any make. a ramp to lift the car up is £2500, gas to heat a workshop, 3 phase electric, autodata for info on cars, £600. i have a small single bay workshop with probably £30, 000 worth of kit to do my job. multiply that up to a main dealer with 10-20 bays, all the kit that they have to have from the manufacturer, and you soon get into very large figures. how main dealers operate with these overheads is mind bogling, and the fact they only charge £100/ hour i find incredible. there is obviously a choice to go to a main dealer, or any other garage, a choice you make, it is not forced upon you.if you feel a garage has not done its job properly, or you have been overcharged, then dont go there again, and perhaps talk to trading standards about it.

Crasher
26-03-2009, 02:32 PM
Zollaf, those words could have been typed by my own figures. I have seen the overheads a main dealer has to pay and I honestly wonder how they survive. You should see what they pay for just software, ETKA alone is £100’s a month and ELSA is scary.

zollaf
26-03-2009, 02:42 PM
its just that it annoys me a little bit when people want a luxury car costing 20k, but then moan about having to pay for its upkeep. they want all the mod cons and electric everything, along with reduced fuel consumption, but still with loads of power. the manufacturers give this in their cars, but it all needs looking after. how many people get their air con serviced every 2 years?, how much brake fluid is out there thats 4 years old etc etc...then they moan because the air con has packed up and needs a new compressor costing a grand.when did you last get it serviced???????.
then their is a change of mind over how long a cam belt will last. whats the response, not ok thanks for telling me so i dont have to fork out for a new engine for 3k, is it. no its moan moan moan.

Crasher
26-03-2009, 03:03 PM
I get annoyed and perplexed by people who buy an old big luxury car for say £1000 that cost say £25K to £30K when new and then whinge like crazy when it costs £1K to fix one individual major issue, they come at me with the “but I only paid £1K so why does it cost £1K to fix it”. They just can’t get it into their heads that a car, no matter how much it costs to buy, doesn’t cost less to repair as it ages, it costs more! They aren’t even paying repair bills on a new expensive luxury car, it is an old expensive luxury car, the second hand value is irrelevant. What did a magazine recently say “there has never been a better time to buy a supercar, for the love off God don’t!”

Sam
26-03-2009, 03:10 PM
Which one of you two is Jack Lemmon then?

Hex69
26-03-2009, 03:18 PM
Which one of you two is Jack Lemmon then?

Some like it hot ;)

http://owendaly.com/jeff/SLIH/press/CurtisLemmon.jpg

Crasher
26-03-2009, 03:28 PM
I look far better than that in a dress, my legs are longer.

peteo
26-03-2009, 03:55 PM
I've definitely learned a lot from some of the recent posts. When you look at the capital costs, they are horrendous and I have changed my mind a bit - maybe the labour charges aren't excessive after all.

In my time I've had good and bad service from garages and dealers. The best garage by a country mile was an outfit in Altrincham called Autotechnic that serviced BMWs over 4 years old. It's called something else now. I had an old 3 series and they would positively discourage you from spending money. If they spotted something, they would say, yes this needs doing or, more often, something to bear in mind - no point in doing it now. I found my Honda dealership very good too. I have mixed experience of VAG. Some good, some not so good. The VAG independents I have used in the past have all been excellent and I'm desperately trying to find one now.


But I have heard of some horrendous rip off stories. Spraying WD40 on shock absorbers then telling the punter that they needed changing. The worst seem to be the fast fit tyre places for this. The "Which" reports show numerous stories of faults not being diagnosed or uneccessary work done.

But fairs fair - we shouldn't tar everybody with the same brush.

Sam
26-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Some like it hot ;)

http://owendaly.com/jeff/SLIH/press/CurtisLemmon.jpg

<heaves> Close, but no cigar ;)

Reminds me of the two lads on the Bounty (now Plenty) Kitchen towel adverts!

(I meant Grumpy Old Men btw - which I'm sure you knew - sarcasm lost!)

Crasher
26-03-2009, 04:38 PM
The VAG independents I have used in the past have all been excellent and I'm desperately trying to find one now.Well I am just down the road from you.


Spraying WD40 on shock absorbers then telling the punter that they needed changingNever thought of that one, might come in handy…:D

onzarob
26-03-2009, 05:31 PM
Never thought of that one, might come in handy…:D

You wouldn't be able to sleep if you did that ;)

zollaf
26-03-2009, 10:54 PM
its the same in every profession though, you get good and bad. solicitors, they charge loads, and some do a good job, but you also hear horror stories. a house purchase can be completed in a day if required, its not hard, so how come it gets dragged out for 6 weeks. plumbers, some can see you coming a mile away, window cleaners that leave streaks, doctors that kill patients, not make them better, the list could go on forever, and yes, i have worked in a garage that would do magic brake fluid changes( suck the resevoir dry and refil it) and splash brake fluid on the rear shoes so you had them changed, and its people like this that give the motor trade a bad name. i have seen people bled dry in the name of profit. i once gave a customer his old discs back, and told him to go straight to trading standards with them, as they were perfectly servicable( my boss didnt like that, but he was a thief, and i can qualify that statement).unfortunately you only get to hear the horror stories, as people rarely tell the papers how well a garage has treated them.

Sam
27-03-2009, 08:58 AM
its the same in every profession though, you get good and bad. solicitors, they charge loads, and some do a good job, but you also hear horror stories. a house purchase can be completed in a day if required, its not hard, so how come it gets dragged out for 6 weeks.

A house purchase can be completed in a day?!

Show me how. It'd save me so much time.

zollaf
27-03-2009, 09:47 AM
ive seen it done where a family were moving into a new house and were due to exchange and complete on the same day. they had sold there house, removal van packed and turned up at the estate agents in the morning to collect the keys, only to be told that the seller had changed their mind.they viewed a couple of houses, found one they liked that was empty, and exchanged and completed the same day. this was a few years ago and it did cost a packet in solicitors fees, but it can be done. there was no mortgage involved so there was no survey required, so its only a quick search with the council, a couple of faxes later, a few signatures and bingo. sometimes a house purchase can drag out for ages, like with mine, we had to have a radon gas inspection/ check, and other anomolies crop up, that can drag things out.

Eshrules
27-03-2009, 09:55 AM
solicitors try to drag things out to justifytheir fees .

You've just spent the last few posts arguing and justifying main dealer labour charges, then you go and say that.

You're not only a hypocrite, but as bad as those referring to dealers by the derogatory term.

Sam
27-03-2009, 09:55 AM
...but it can be done. there was no mortgage involved so there was no survey required, so its only a quick search with the council, a couple of faxes later, a few signatures and bingo.
solicitors try to drag things out to justifytheir fees .

You're a mechanic I presume?

This thread has touched a nerve, you feel the need to reply, I respect that.

What if I said I was a solicitor?

You've just done to them, what everyone here does to mechanics.

Not that it matters to you I'm sure, but you just lost some of my respect.

zollaf
27-03-2009, 10:07 AM
it was said tongue in cheek. yes it does usually take a while to complete a house purchase and i was just pointing out that i know of one occasion where it has been done quickly. obviously to become a solicitor takes a lot of training and the money they charge is justified. i apologise if i upset anyone, and no offence was meant. i shall now go do some work, with my tail between my legs.

Crasher
27-03-2009, 02:05 PM
I know I defend them against being referred to as thieves but Christ can they be frustrating to deal with. I am trying to arrange a simple flash software update with my local Audi dealer on a customers 2005 A6 and it is driving me mad. They insist the software update doesn’t exist even though I have faxed them the details straight off of ELSA, it is so frustrating not being able to do this myself. I would compare the experience of dealing with an Audi dealers service department as something akin to torture, if you just want a simple job done and that is it, all is fine but if it becomes complex, God help your sanity and hair line! I have had to tell the customer he will have to take it to them but doesn’t like Nottingham Audi.

onzarob
27-03-2009, 02:21 PM
I k I am trying to arrange a simple flash software update with my local Audi dealer on a customers 2005 A6 and it is driving me mad.


Is that a chargeable by the dealer, I want to get my Golf GT TDI updated as there is a one about. but unsure as of the best way to have it done, most say it done at a service but as the car was service less than 2K its not due for ages and I will probaly do that myself.

Crasher
27-03-2009, 04:13 PM
They said not but I know of cases where they have done, the local VW dealer charged me for one on a PD TDI 150.

onzarob
27-03-2009, 04:40 PM
I'll give VW a ring, I got a week off soon so will try and get it done then. I think its the 24m8 update I need.

Sorry, i've wandered right of topic now :BLUSH:

Noswal
10-06-2009, 05:36 PM
I have said it before but I will say it again, please can we refrain from calling VAG main dealers “********”. Not only is it wrong (for too many reasons to go into here) but it is also slanderous which in any other walk of life could easily be dealt with by a court of law should VAG UK feel inclined to do so, those using “tinterweb” feel that they are immune from such action and to a certain extent they are, at the moment-it is not a state of affairs that will continue indefinitely.

I am an independent VAG Specialist of 25 years and not connected with the dealer network in any way, in fact I often find them exasperating and incompetent when I do have to deal with them but I find it maddening when I see people use this insulting term and if I was in charge at VAG UK I would come down on people using this insult like a ton of bricks.

I would ask the moderators to consider action against forum members who use this insult in future if they have any respect for VAG UK. On another forum I go on that is mainly aimed at the trade, anyone who uses the term “********” has their post deleted.

From this point onwards I will not reply to ANY post by someone who insists on using this insult.

Whıle I do apologıse for usıng the S******* word on thıs forum, ıt ıs wıdely used on other forums not neccesarıly VW forums. I dıd not apprecıate members on thıs sıte do not approve of ıt, I wıll refraın from usıng ıt on thıs forum ın future.

My reply was to the thread: (Anybody used thıs guy ın Nottıngham?), and my reply was that the one ındependant dealer that I was dırected to from that orıgınal thread was to convey the fact that I was quoted equaly hıgh prıces by that ındependant dealer ın Nottıngham by that qouted to me by a very respected franchısed VW dealer ın Nottınghamshıre.
Indeed, one prıce by the ındependant exceded that of the franchısed dealer !.

peteo
10-06-2009, 08:48 PM
Having just had my Mk5 Golf 1.9tdi serviced by a main dealer, I was pleasantly surprised by the bill. I use the Smith Kinight Fay group at present and they have a John Lewis type pledge to price match any independent within 5 miles I think it is.

Crasher
10-06-2009, 08:51 PM
The dealers do match indis but not like for like, they say they are servicing the car but all you get is oil and filter.

peteo
11-06-2009, 06:44 AM
The dealers do match indis but not like for like, they say they are servicing the car but all you get is oil and filter.

Yes, that's fair comment. It isn't just about price and I would still look for a decent independent long term because I agree you stand a better chance of getting a real enthusiast looking after your car.

Still, having seen some main dealer prices quoted for servicing, I was pleasantly surprised. The dealer I used charged significantly less than I was paying over 3 years ago to have my Bora serviced (that was at a different dealership over in Warrington).

We do owe it to independents for providing competition that will keep prices reasonable.

Noswal
12-06-2009, 07:41 AM
The prıces I got from the maın dealer were not prıce matched, they were the fırst quotes I got then I asked the ındıes.
All thıs talk on thıs thread about maın dealer overheads beıng astronomıcal does not materıalıse ın the quote I had wherre the maın dealer quoted less than the ındıe!.

onzarob
12-06-2009, 09:12 AM
Just to throw a little more debate into this....you are talking 'Quotes' I wonder what the actual fixed price came in at, My Concern over most dealers is the Actual price you pay once the problem is sorted is always higher than the quote and I personally like the fact you can talk to an idependent mech direclty about your car and not some receptionist who books your car in ;)

Crasher
12-06-2009, 10:58 AM
The prıces I got from the maın dealer were not prıce matched, they were the fırst quotes I got then I asked the ındıes.
All thıs talk on thıs thread about maın dealer overheads beıng astronomıcal does not materıalıse ın the quote I had wherre the maın dealer quoted less than the ındıe!.

Main dealer overheads are astronomical, the reason you are getting low prices at the moment is they are desperate for any sort of work and fighting for survival so quoting stupidly low prices to get people in and then often bumping the job up to its true cost later, a true cost that will be higher than an indi. I am seeing and hearing about this on a daily basis. I lost a job yesterday doing pads on a Passat 3C as the dealer quoted a ridiculously low price to do the job, literally half an hour’s labour plus the parts. The end result of this will not be to anyone’s long term benefit.

peteo
12-06-2009, 02:09 PM
Until I started coming on these forums I don't think I had fully appreciated what the hourly cost entailed. Your initial reaction is the garage doesn't pay the mechanic £60 an hour so they must be making an astronomical profit out of you. I hadn't really considered the capital overheads - interests on loans to buy the equipment and so and so forth.

Having said all that, there is no doubt in my mind that many dealers have creamed it a bit in the past taking advantage of the desire to have your book stamped up by the specialist main dealer. Many people, myself included, have fallen for this to a greater or lesser extent. I also have this feeling that someone who deals with VWs (or any other make for that matter) on a daily basis, is just going to know that bit more about them.

But I can see where Crasher is coming from. Ultimately I think I would prefer to pay that bit more to get a proper job done than have someone skimp on the work to get the job done in the shortest possible time.

Noswal
13-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Main dealer overheads are astronomical, the reason you are getting low prices at the moment is they are desperate for any sort of work and fighting for survival so quoting stupidly low prices to get people in and then often bumping the job up to its true cost later, a true cost that will be higher than an indi. I am seeing and hearing about this on a daily basis. I lost a job yesterday doing pads on a Passat 3C as the dealer quoted a ridiculously low price to do the job, literally half an hour’s labour plus the parts. The end result of this will not be to anyone’s long term benefit.

Poınt taken, I have ın fact booked the Touran ın wıth an ındıe VW specıalıst a week ago wıth thıs poınt ın mınd. The car goes ın whenı get back from my holıday (where I am now) ın Turkey.

Col
13-06-2009, 09:26 PM
quoting stupidly low prices to get people in and then often bumping the job up to its true cost later

That so, then the word that shall not be spoken is well deserved.

Sharp practices like that in my mind constitute fraud and fraud is stealing.

Customer confidence, satisfaction and trust are far more important. Any business that get those right will increase turnover and subsequently margins. Unfortunately it only takes one or two organisations to ruin it for those that provide a good honest service.

Those that do though deserve to be named and shamed.

Crasher
13-06-2009, 10:01 PM
Not quite what I meant. They get people in on the basis of a simple job and allow the true to appear later when the car is in bits, not fraud or stealing but sharp practise all the same, most garages do it especially when short of work as many are at the moment. I hear both my local dealers are pulling their hair out as collapsed new cars sales mean reduced guaranteed new car supply related work and reduced warranty work. The other thing that is hurting them are the Longlife service regimes, double the length of the interval, reduce car sales and that is a triple whammy. The whole market is changing through; it is very, different, at the moment. I went into my local VAG breakers yesterday and they were scrapping a 2001 Bora 1.6 as the engine was making. The car was very clean but the cost of repairs and the value didn’t stack up, it is all very odd at the moment. I am busy and for that I am thankful.

Col
13-06-2009, 10:24 PM
I think the whole automotive industry needs to re-invent itself as at present things are unsustainable.

The R&D costs of pushing out new models every few years as opposed to every 7-10 years is the root cause I think. Those R&D costs are obviously passed on along the whole supply chain until it reaches the buyers of the cars.

The dealers have to pay higher francise costs and tooling costs. Car buyers have to pay for more expensive cars. Except they are not. The manurfacturers need to slow down the lifecycle of a model. Except they cannot because the Pacific Rim manurfacturers are not slowing down.

The fact is cars are being produced that people want it is just they are to expensive.

Crasher
14-06-2009, 12:41 PM
I don’t think cars are too expensive for what they are provide. When my mother bought her first new car in 1978 it was the equivalent to more than half a years salary as a teacher, now the same class of car would cost less than a quarter of a years salary for someone in the same job today. The problem with modern cars is they are just too complex with all their safety and emissions requirements plus the luxury gadgets we demand and so when they break at ten years old they cost too much to repair. Usually there is a long list of faults that has built up too so you get the odd situation of a car that looks straight and clean being scrapped due to the cost of repair.

Going off on a slight tangent, something thing has been worrying me about electric cars, no one has brought up the subject of air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter-how are these two services going to be provided? Plus youngsters with their thumping stereo’s, were is the power going to come from?

zollaf
14-06-2009, 04:56 PM
heat and air conditioning could be provided by a small petrol generator, the same one that you carry to recharge on the move.:D

Crasher
14-06-2009, 08:42 PM
So zero local emissions bites the dust then… That is what I know the solution is but do those in power? People want A/C and need heating as a cold weather safety feature.

A4soundman
04-07-2009, 12:29 PM
I use another car forum a lot and have noticed the S term being used loads in relation to the cost of parts and labour.
Regarding the cost of parts though, sometimes you just have to realise that you get what you pay for.
If you buy a cheaper non-VAG part from another supplier, often it won't be as high quality and won't last as long. So buying the more expensive part from the dealer can make more sense. But people still object to the higher price.
As for labour costs, this thread has already shown that the higher cost is justified by the overheads incurred by the dealership.

I will always try to use an independant garage. When I was in Nottingham I always used a smallish place called David Drew Garages, they were great, they only did what you asked and if they spotted something they'd let you know about it and whether it needed doing and ask if you wanted it done now or wait.
Sadly I now live in London and need to find a good local independant as I don't fancy a) shody repair or b) huge bill from a dealer. But I'm realistic, I realise I might not be able to have my cake and eat it.

On the matter of MOTs and Audi, has anyone gone for a Free MOT from Audi: http://www.audi.co.uk/audi/uk/en2/owners_area/Servicing_with_Audi/free-mot.html
I like the offer and may take it up, but if the car needs any work, I'd probably be stuck with having to pay the Audi labour rates.

davelincs
04-07-2009, 05:34 PM
I have been on other forums, 2 of them have a hall of fame and shame
the hall of fame you name a dealer, whether it be the main dealer, independant garage, online service and the list goes on, also you have to write what the service was,
the hall of shame, well that speaks for itself, if a dealer does you a bad turn, overcharge on original quote, abusive staff and so on, you also have to write about why you were putting there name in the hall of shame
at least other members can have a look to see if a dealer in there area is any good or not,
does this site have such a thing?

a8 tech
04-07-2009, 05:47 PM
This forum has many dealer staff who add to the forum and also it gives a view from the inside as well as technical information as well as pointing out the truth.There is no real benefit from constantly moaning because you didn't get what you wanted and vag group has invested lots of money in to the uk network to improve customer relations but people are people.I would be interested in your occupation and your level of service you provide as I to have issues but they are with computer shops and phone shops and these don't even get near the level now of customer service now seen in the Audi network.Having dealt with many a awkward customer I feel sometimes they are after cuddle and I myself hold back a bit when I have to deal with shoddy service as its not very pleasant abusing staff especially in a restaurant where body fluids may end up in your soup lol.
I recently dealt with a local vauxhall dealer and found there level of customer service shocking and technical knowledge very very poor the issue was simple they were trying to sell additional items on a vehicle they had serviced but these items were well within the specifications set by the manufacturer but after pointing this out they had no reply which raised the question in directing the complaint to trading standards which then led to a service manager appearing and me showing him how to use a micrometer to determine brake disc actual wear and recommended thickness for replacement,please take into account this vehicle had covered only 5000 miles.Lets say the matter was never resolved due to owner of the vehicle my mate asked him which leg he would prefer to be broken.

peteo
05-07-2009, 07:25 AM
I think this idea of the complexity of many modern cars leading to an early death as it were is very true. You have to ask yourself, for example, whether you would have a new clutch fitted in a 10 year old car. The reason I mention this is my next door neighbour has a T reg Astra (1999?). It's worth about £400 even though, bodily at least, it looks pretty clean. His clutch is on the way out and he's been quoted £450.

He's decided to scrap the car - he's cursing because he just outside the 10 year scheme.

If your air con system failed, you might be looking down the barrel of a grand or even more. Possibly, as Crasher implies, this explains the fact that even though cars last longer bodily and even though engines will do collosal mileages, you now rarely see even quite recent cars. When did you last see a Ford Sierra for example?

monzablue16v
06-07-2009, 01:31 PM
I can't believe you are sticking up for main dealers. It's unreal the amount they charge for the simplest of tasks, the only time I will go into one is to collect parts I can only get from them.

They got the title by charging extortionate rates for services and simple diagnostics in the first three years of ownership. Ask them for a price to connect the VAG analysis machine to your port and tell you the fault codes and make sure you are sat down.

The new laws on servicing are the best thing to happen as they now have to try and match the prices of local independents. As for overheads well stop buying such high rent shiny glass and steel buildings then that's just basic business sense.

Even the fleet companies are stopping using main dealers due to the costs if anything is needed outside the discounted servicing. Oh you need wipers, 4 new tyres, and your brakes are shot. Well we can't let it leave here like that now please bend over.

Mini Mark
06-07-2009, 01:39 PM
I can't believe you are sticking up for main dealers. It's unreal the amount they charge for the simplest of tasks, the only time I will go into one is to collect parts I can only get from them.

They got the title by charging extortionate rates for services and simple diagnostics in the first three years of ownership. Ask them for a price to connect the VAG analysis machine to your port and tell you the fault codes and make sure you are sat down.

The new laws on servicing are the best thing to happen as they now have to try and match the prices of local independents. As for overheads well stop buying such high rent shiny glass and steel buildings then that's just basic business sense.

Even the fleet companies are stopping using main dealers due to the costs if anything is needed outside the discounted servicing. Oh you need wipers, 4 new tyres, and your brakes are shot. Well we can't let it leave here like that now please bend over.

YOu say stop having fanvcey showrooms etc but it's all about inage if I went to buy a car costing £25000 + (infact any new car no matter how much it cost) if the showroom was rundown and dingy I would walk away as if they don't take pride and care in thier own imiage what chance is there of them taking care of your car. HTe overheadsare so high becuase of the cost of Electric gas tools insurance, rates, training health and safety polices etc etc not just becuase they have a fancy showroom.

Crasher
06-07-2009, 01:41 PM
What “new laws on servicing”?

The main dealer have big shinny buildings as that is what customers buying new cars expect as part of the “experience” and they expect nice new loan cars, coffee, TV’s etc. I am not sticking up for the dealers as such, yes I defend their pricing due to the overheads, what I object to it them being called thieves. In the end, you have the choice, don’t like it-don’t go there.

monzablue16v
06-07-2009, 01:41 PM
YOu say stop having fanvcey showrooms etc but it's all about inage if I went to buy a car costing £25000 + (infact any new car no matter how much it cost) if the showroom was rundown and dingy I would walk away as if they don't take pride and care in thier own imiage what chance is there of them taking care of your car. HTe overheadsare so high becuase of the cost of Electric gas tools insurance, rates, training health and safety polices etc etc not just becuase they have a fancy showroom.

But who pays for that?

Mini Mark
06-07-2009, 02:06 PM
But who pays for that?

Erm in the long run the people buying cars using the services etc just like if you stay in a 5 star hotel your paying for it at the end of the day companies like VW BMW (sorry) ALfa etc are selling high end high value goods and have a imiage to keep they are not going to give a francise to a garge with boarded up windows and shaby interiors as it doesn't go with their image of a quality product etc.

Running a succesful business is all about the image and sticking in peoples minds for the right reasons which is why my familes business runs nice vans that are signwrtten and kept clean and tidy as it gives the image of a quality company whihc is what customers look for if we turned up in a rusty and dented old van they would think they won't do a quality job yes the cost is passed on to the customer but thats becuase if you want a good quality product/service you pay for it

stuart
06-07-2009, 02:39 PM
Right.... I have had enough of this now... you all have a choice, go to a dealer with big overheads, due to being tied to a manufacturer, OR go to an independant!

YOU HAVE A CHOICE!

At the end of the day we have a strict policy.... we do not allow Dealers to be called ******** on this site! end of it!

So, this thread is now closed!