A4 tdi Quattro wheel hop, tyre scraping?

[skymaster]

Hi

I have an A4 TDI quattro 2003 model (B6 Platform). I have an issue with it where by it suffers slight wheel hop when cornering fast on right hand bends. It also seems to scrab and scrub on the front right tyre when parking on full lock( right lock only). Sometimes feels like it's driving over a stone then they tyre slips off it (only the road surface is smooth)

I have just had 4 new tyres fitted and I have had all the bolts checked for correct torque settings. This has not helped at all

Any ideas?

[sean red i]

skymaster,
i have same problem. only noticed it at full lock going slow. its difficult to describe but no what u mean.mine is 04 1.8t quattro. i thought could be rear wheels pushing you along if u no what i mean. had michelins fitted continentals previous both the same, mate has a 3.0 quattro it also does it. thats why i thought quattro to blame. could be wrong hopefully someone will no
sean

[skymaster]

Mmmm, thats interesting how you have the same issue. Maybe it is just a feature of quattro. Are there any other quattro owners reading this that either have or dont have this issue. To be honest it's not a massive problem. It's not really awful or that loud. Just a bit worrying. If there is something wrong it could cause uneven tyre wear.

I have though about maybe getting a 4 wheel alignment done, would be right time now I have 4 new tyres on there.

[JohnnyM100]

I agree that it would be worth getting a 4-wheel alignment check. No need to go to an Audi dealer as an independent firm can do for about £80 GBP incl adjustments, but make sure its a 4-wheel alignment and not just the front wheels (just to be safe).

Sounds as though you have a toe-in problem on the front wheels, with the right wheel out of alignment more than the left. I had exactly this problem on my A3, but just after it had been into a garage for some suspension bushes.

JohnnyM100

[skymaster]

Was your A3 a quattro? I guess 4 wheel alignment is not a bad idea anyway. Who knows how many curbs the previous owner bumper it up?

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I agree that it would be worth getting a 4-wheel alignment check. No need to go to an Audi dealer as an independent firm can do for about £80 GBP incl adjustments, but make sure its a 4-wheel alignment and not just the front wheels (just to be safe).

Be very wary about where you take any B6 Audi (and also VW Passat) for wheel alignment. The multi-link, multi/variable geometry, multi-adjustable suspension, front and rear, is a right barsteward to get right. Even a franchised Audi dealership mangaged to fu*& up my S4. Do not let anywhere like Kwik-Fit, ATS, HiQ, or any general tyre place near the alignment. Find a recommended independent VAG specialist, who can be relied on to do a propper alignment check and adjustment.


Sounds as though you have a toe-in problem on the front wheels, with the right wheel out of alignment more than the left. I had exactly this problem on my A3, but just after it had been into a garage for some suspension bushes.

JohnnyM100

You are quite correct about the alignment, and the bush wear - but your A3 has a completely different front suspension (traditional MacPherson struts) to the A4 range.

My S4 also skips on either full lock at v.slow (parking) speeds. I did have knocking from the suspension area, but with no noticeable effect, which was sorted with a new track rod end.

Rgds

[patrick]

Quattro is designed to not bind the wheels like you are describing. Most often it is an alignment issue. If you just spent a bunch of money on new tires, I would recommend an alignment anyway, otherwise you might be throwing the new tires down the drain.

You might have what is called a "toed in" or "toed out" condition, which will not allow the car to handle right and also chews up front tires.

Good luck!

Patrick
www.AudiA4Mods.com (http://www.audia4mods.com)

[skymaster]

Mmmm, sounds like a 4 wheel Geo is on the cards. I have access to one for £85 at my local VW dealer but this is a special price as I know the manager there.

I assume it being the same set up as a 4mo Passat they should be able to handle it.

I am gonan have the garage I bought it from check it first though, just to see if there are any actual worn parts or faults with it. It's an Audi master tech they are bringing in to check it and I know him a little bit so should be able to tget to the bottom of it. Will keep you all informed

[Dave Avant]

Normally this type of skip, i pressume its just mainly on full lock is cured by a wheel alignment check. I had it on my MG ZT, but after I had some new tyres and a 4 wheel alignment done, it didn't do it. I think the wheels if not aligned properly fight each in turning the corner at a different angle to each other.

I paid £40 for a 4 wheel laser alignment at a local tyre and exhaust place - a decent one not a Kwik Fit.

[skymaster]

Thats reassuring dave, thanks. I wonder if a quattro reacts differntly to being out of alignment compared to a two wheel drive car. I think some manufacturers reccomend a 4 wheel alignment every 2 years somewhere in the handbook small print.

Yes, mine does it only on full lock. The general handing at driving speeds seems OK.

But surely you are not suggesting that Quick Fit are not decent???:biglaugh::biglaugh:

[Dave Avant]

The Quattro system shouldn't make a difference.

I think most cars need a quick steering track check as suspension components settle from new or wear with age, it all adds to changes in the suspension geometry. It effects some cars more than others, depends on the setup, like multi-link or Audi like Honda use double wish bone upfront instead of Macpherson. The double wishbone does tend to be the better setup, but I think isn't immune to change in geometry with age.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

The Quattro system shouldn't make a difference.

True, but the front drive from the quattro can amplify any defects in alignment or play in joints.


I think most cars need a quick steering track check as suspension components settle from new or wear with age, it all adds to changes in the suspension geometry.

Hmm . . . not so sure on that - would agree on cars over 6 years old (due to natural deterioration of rubber), but on a 2-3 year old high miler, merely pounding up and down m.ways/autobahns, I'd seriously doubt any deviation from standard. I do see where you are coming from though.


It effects some cars more than others, depends on the setup, like multi-link or Audi like Honda use double wish bone upfront instead of Macpherson. The double wishbone does tend to be the better setup, but I think isn't immune to change in geometry with age.

Audi A4s (and VW Passats) on the B5, B6 and B7 chassis don't have wishbones. The "upper" is controlled by two separate arms, and the "lower" also has two separate arms and the anti-roll bar - they are all adjustable - and a right pig if you are not familure with them. They are actually more complicated than a Formula 1 car!

[skymaster]

I guess it's worth getting a geo done on a used car if you have no idea how the previous owner treated it. If they drove up curbs, parked badly or hit some really nasty pot holes it could be out. Or worse still.... They might have taken it to Kwik Fit to get the tracking done. Then it would certainly need correcting!

[Dave Avant]

True, but the front drive from the quattro can amplify any defects in alignment or play in joints.



Hmm . . . not so sure on that - would agree on cars over 6 years old (due to natural deterioration of rubber), but on a 2-3 year old high miler, merely pounding up and down m.ways/autobahns, I'd seriously doubt any deviation from standard. I do see where you are coming from though.



Audi A4s (and VW Passats) on the B5, B6 and B7 chassis don't have wishbones. The "upper" is controlled by two separate arms, and the "lower" also has two separate arms and the anti-roll bar - they are all adjustable - and a right pig if you are not familure with them. They are actually more complicated than a Formula 1 car!


I would have thought a RWD drive would make the scrubbing worse as the front wheels are being pushed round the corner, rather than pulling themselves - bit like understeer on a RWD, I remember my BMW doing it a bit.

Yes I agree with there not being much more wear on the components, but some also suffer knocks etc.


I was generalising a bit with the wishbone, but its sort of what its derived from, yes it isn't in the shape of a triangular format going to 1 point at the hub, but the same principle, keeps the geometry in better check through the suspension travel, after all I think you'll agree a Macpherson strut disconnected from the hub flaps about like a puppies tail in comparison. :D

[Dave Avant]

They might have taken it to Kwik Fit to get the tracking done. Then it would certainly need correcting!


:D

I did before I became wise go to Kwik Fit, usually only for tyre jobs. One lad working there advised me to put 18" wheels on my Rover coupe turbo, then it would do 190mph, he said its true, he did it on his Calibra turbo - I think he needs to understand the rolling circumference!!

Another trip for a puncture saw them jack the car up under the fuel tank and not balance the wheel!!!

[muleof1999]

I had the same thing, only it was turning left. 4 wheel alignment made it go away completely. Chewed up some tires before I had the chance to fix it though. Hope you get it fixed!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I would have thought a RWD drive would make the scrubbing worse as the front wheels are being pushed round the corner, rather than pulling themselves - bit like understeer on a RWD, I remember my BMW doing it a bit.

Yes, but the front end geometry base settings are often quite different between front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive and all-wheel drive, to counter the very issues you mentioned above, regarding the push-me / pull-me syndromes (bad wording - but you know what I mean;) ).


Yes I agree with there not being much more wear on the components, but some also suffer knocks etc.

But then knocks bad enough to upset the geometry in the first place couldn't really be described as "normal" use (OK - depending on whether you are a pikey driver/got real dodgy pot-holed roads etc, then the normal definition may have to be revised slightly ;) :D )


I was generalising a bit with the wishbone, but its sort of what its derived from, yes it isn't in the shape of a triangular format going to 1 point at the hub, but the same principle, keeps the geometry in better check through the suspension travel, after all I think you'll agree a Macpherson strut disconnected from the hub flaps about like a puppies tail in comparison. :D

Yebut - fixed wishbones have fixed arc geometry, whereas the multilink VW/Audi front end has multi-arc, multi-variable geometry. If you ever get to watch the full range movement, when the spring/damper unit is disconnected, you'll be amazed at the compexity of the differing angles, including the variable toe adjustment. That's why these are so difficult to adjust correctly.

I do take your point about the generalisation of the wishbone shape though! MacPherson struts are a good compromise between low manufacturing and maintenance costs, and they can work very well when the correct geometry is set at vehicle design - just ask any Golf V owner ;)

Rgds

[skymaster]

Yea, Those Mk 5 golfs do handle really well. Especially the GTIs! I bet the 4 Mo ones are amazing as well.I was serioulsy thinking of getting a MK5 TDI 140 but opted for the A4 instead. I had owned MK4s since 2000 and was getting a bit sick of the golf after all these years.

[sean red i]

thanks 4 all responses,(got a bit lost once or twice with technical side of it), mine has done it since owned 2 years. last set of front tyres got 15k miles out of them which i thought was good 4 this car (weight,quattro,odd bit of throwing it about) anyway spoke to a alignment, tracking place today, explained problem,make quattro etc,come very highly recommended, going to look at next week, let u no how i get on. doesnt sound cheap

[skymaster]

Yea, The 4 wheel alignment on the right equiptment is expensive at some places. Main dealers charge roughly 2 hours labour to do it. At £80 odd per hour that aint cheap. Especially once you add the dreaded VAT on.

Mine is going to be checked tomorrow then I might get the 4 wheel geo alignment done next week if tomorow does not throw up any obvious faults.

[skymaster]

I too am grateful for the replies to this and Glad to hear other people have had the same fault. One of my concerns was that the diff was at fault and thus causing this. It sounds like the 4 wheel alignment might just fix it. Will let you know next week!

[andy2]

How did you get on with this? I think I have a similar problem- moving slowly at full lock (eg parking in car parks) - feels like the wheel is skipping. I have a 2005 2.0T Quattro.

[skymaster]

Hi

It was briefly looked at on saturday. The guy that looked was a VAG master tech whos worked at VW and Audi main dealers for years. He thinks it's unlikely to be a diff issue (thank god). He has said it must have a 4 wheel alignment to see if this cures it. I am going to try and get my VW main dealer to do this this week.

He thinks it could be 'Toe out on turns' that is incorrect. Once I have had the 4 wheel alignment done I will be reporting back on here to let everyone know the results.

Interesting your 2005 quattro is doing it, how many miles has it done?

[skymaster]

Mine is booked in wednesday so by wednesday night I should be able to give you some idea if the Geo cures it. Fingers crossed!!!

[andy2]

Just 10,000 miles (September 05 registered) - so still fairly young to need any tracking adjustments, in theory at least. Currently in the garage to have a scratch repsrayed (see my other post).

[Teutonic_Tamer]

He thinks it could be 'Toe out on turns' that is incorrect. Once I have had the 4 wheel alignment done I will be reporting back on here to let everyone know the results.

That is one of the many adjustments. Make sure you get a copy of the print-outs from before and after.

Rgds

[skymaster]

Hi

Yes, I will do. It's going to have the full treatment done with all 4 wheels. A 2 hour job I am told. Maybe the 05 plate one with 10k on the clock has come out of the factory with poorly aligned wheels / suspension. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility.

It goes in tomorrow so fingers crossed.

[skymaster]

OK all! I am back from the VW garage and £90 lighter! I have had the 4 wheel alignment done and the problem seems to have gone away. I have tried turning round in the road entrances where it really caused it to happen before and it seems to be OK now. Shall I scan the printout of the results? I can post it on here if you like? It's a load of numbers that I cant understand.

Cheers

[skymaster]

Here is the reults of the GEO. If anyone can tell me what this means I would be grateful. Thanks

[Dave Avant]

Basically they have tweaked/checked the suspension in all areas, camber, castor and than main one, Toe. Looks like a good comprehensive check and adjust - you won't get that at Kwik Fit!!! :beerchug:

Castor - the angle of the suspension measured from the upright position. Adjusting this can increase steering feel and load with increasing the turn, making it more positve to feeldepending on which way its adjusted.

Camber - The angle of the wheel's upright position. Positive camber looks like the old beetles you used to see with the top of the wheel leaning further out than the bottom. Negative camber is obviously opposite, with the top of the wheel leaning inwards. Normally its near vertical with if any negative camber as yours. This improves grip when cornering as the car rolls the negative camber counters this by the wheel not going into positive camber with the rolling of the car.

Toe - The direction of the wheels in relation to each other. If they point inwards like going cross eyed thats toeing in or +. This makes the steering more sharper and better turn in (cornering). - (neg) Toe in is when the wheels point outwards, this tends to make it OK for straight lines, but a bit 'lazy' on turning into a corner.

- toe = feathered/worn tyres on insides
+ toe = feathered/worn on outsides.

Hope that gives a 'basic' meaning to it. :D Most of the adjustment has been to the toe settings.

Teutonic was right when he said there were many adjustments - bit like a rubix cube setting it up!!

[skymaster]

cheers dave. That helps a lot. Hopefully this will be the end of my woes on this issue for the time being. Having seen people do the Geo checks I always struggled to see how they got it right in terms of adjusting it all correctly. It does look very difficult to my untrained eye.

[Dave Avant]

Also they will probably 'weight' the car up with additional weight to check the Geo with load.

Some will just specify a full tank of fuel.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

OK Skymaster, just answered your PM ;) - what did you want to know?

Having got out my magnifying glass ;) ;) - nothing initially seems too drastic from the before and after measurements. But the closer I look, the more I'm not so sure!

I'll concentrate on the front end, as that is usually the bothersome end.

You have a good even (between sides) amount of positive castor - this setting provides the positive "self-centering" to the steering whilst moving forward. Think supermarket shopping trolleys - each of the wheels can be pointing all over the place, as soon as you push it forward, they all line up and (looking down from above) follow "behind" the pivot.

The king pin inclination or KPI is slightly different from left to right, but the printout doesn't give the tollerances. I'd be slightly concerned, because there is nearly ½ a degree difference. I don't have the data to hand, so it might be worth phoning another dealer to see if they can give you the propper spec. If not, go back to the place that did it and ask them to explain why they have not evened this out. FYI, a positive KPI angle provides positive "self-centering" to the steering, but due to the weight of the vehicle, not any forward motion.

Therefore, positive castor assists with self-centering steering when going forwards, but actually works against it when going backwards - that is why going fast in reverse gear is difficult to steer in a straight line.

Toe out on turns - not much to report - was OK before actually.

Camber - hmmm - I would not be too happy with that. There is 20minutes (a third of a degree) difference between the two sides. Camber is the most crucial measurement to get right, more importantly, to get the same on both sides - this can affect vehicle stability (pulling to one side, excessive tramlineing, excessive torque-steer). These figures were within tollerances before and after the adjustment, and the cross camber (differences side to side) measurement is within the manufacturers tollerance, I personally would aim for 0°05', and would settle for an absolute max of 0°10'. I would go back and request they do this again, and if they give you grief, tell them the cross camber target of 0°30' is a maximum allowance - the ideal should be 0°00'.

The toe settings were only slightly out, and they have got these nigh-on spot-on (they are the easiest to do though). This could have caused your wheel scrub.

Did you actually ask for a 4wheel alignment and adjust????

There is a difference in the rear camber, and the rear toe is not within specification. Unless they gave you a very good reason why they did not correct these measurements (such as accident damage, worn bushes, loose wheel bearings), then that is not in compliance with Audi specifications. Demand they sort it out without any further cost to you.

Ohh, one final thing - the printout they gave you is from an old style of alignment machine. The new ones give a graphic print with pictures of wheels and the thrust, or front-to-rear offset, which is really handy, 'cause that tells you (not conclusively, mind you) of the car has been in a prang, and distorted the bodyshell.

[skymaster]

Wow! Thanks for that! That is very interesting indeed and extremely helpful. Shame you have retired! Sounds like you might be the best person to do it given the right tools for the job!

Bl**dy typical dealer service, sounds like they have just got it right enough to be vaugely in spec but still not 100% accurate. Very annoying indeed. I used to work there hence they gave me a bit of a deal so taking it back could be awkward (ish) Especially if they say that is it in spec which I am sure they will.

Are there any places where they do 4 wheel alignment that pay as much attention to getting it right as they would their own car? Sadly I am one of those people that likes these things to be 100% right or near as damn it.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Wow! Thanks for that! That is very interesting indeed and extremely helpful.

You're welcome. :D


Shame you have retired! Sounds like you might be the best person to do it given the right tools for the job!

Probably not - I used to hate doing alignment jobs. They can be very easy money, because very, very few people actually know the intricancies of geometry. The lastest kit is very expensive, mind you, which is why (a) the garages like to push the service, but (b) don't always get it spot-on, because that takes time, and the longer you spend on a job, the less the bean counters like you!


Bl**dy typical dealer service, sounds like they have just got it right enough to be vaugely in spec but still not 100% accurate. Very annoying indeed.

Sadly, it seems to be the norm, weather at offical franchised dealers, or at the main tyre chains. The true "independent specialists" really are the best bet for this kind of work.


I used to work there hence they gave me a bit of a deal so taking it back could be awkward (ish) Especially if they say that is it in spec which I am sure they will.

'Tis a difficult one! How does the car drive? Does it pull to one side under hard acceleration from rest? Does it pull to one side at constant speed when you release your grip on the steering wheel? Is one side more prone to tramlineing than the other? If yes to any or all of those, then providing the obvious like matched pairs (same make, tread pattern and tread depth) of tyres, and correct tyre pressures are spot on - then I would take it back. It's no different than going to a pub owned by your lifelong best mate, asking for a pint, the pub owner said you can have it at cost price, but then only gives you a half!

Regarding the actual specification, the camber and toe have the ideal figure in brackets, but also an upper and lower range. The cross camber is a maximum value, but doesn't quote the minimum of 0°, because that is an commonly accepted standard that you do aim for 0° anyway. If the garage really do try to insist that the cross camber is OK, and that the rear toe is also OK, well I would seriously question their true mechanical competence and integrity.


Are there any places where they do 4 wheel alignment that pay as much attention to getting it right as they would their own car? Sadly I am one of those people that likes these things to be 100% right or near as damn it.

There are places around that can be relied on to do a good job, but you really need to ask around your local area. If you have a German Swedish & French http://www.gsfcarparts.com/, or EuroCar Parts http://www.eurocarparts.com/ dealers, pop in there and ask them, as they are usually genuine enthusiasts for the VAG brand in general. What is your neck of the woods?

Rgds

[skymaster]

Hi

I am down near bristol. I had my last car chipped and worked on by AMD in Bicester but thats a long way to travel. They seemed OK however not cheap. With my last car I just had it done at my VW garage and it seemed OK. This being a quattro I am keen to have it done perfectly if possible. I am taking the car on a really good run tomorrow to my parachute club so that will enable me to test it's high speed handling.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I am down near bristol.

Carrot cruncher :D :D :D :D :D

OK, I'm looking through all my contacts ATM. I'll re-edit later if I find any.

http://www.mmautos.co.uk/ - at Salisbury - any good?

A non-VAG, but highly regarded inde is Regal Autosport, in Southampton, prolly too far away though!


I had my last car chipped and worked on by AMD in Bicester but thats a long way to travel. They seemed OK however not cheap.

AMD do have a very good reputation.


With my last car I just had it done at my VW garage and it seemed OK. This being a quattro I am keen to have it done perfectly if possible. I am taking the car on a really good run tomorrow to my parachute club so that will enable me to test it's high speed handling.

FFS, don't chuck your Audi out of a plane - it can't be that bad, surely ;) ;) ;) ;)

[skymaster]

Hi

As it happens the parachute club is very near salisbury. It's in netheravon in wilts! The car will be staying well and truely grounded dont you worry about that. I do love it as a car and regard this as a minor issue to get sorted.

So salisbury or Southampton are not beyond the bounds of possibility for a saturday morning booking! Although I need to know that it will be set up exactly right according to spec if I am gonna go there and shell out again.

I will leave carrots for the locals I think, I aint from round ere originally init.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Hi

As it happens the parachute club is very near salisbury. It's in netheravon in wilts!

Strewth, I know the area very well, about 4 miles south from where I used to live ;) - PM me if you want any more info ;) ;)


The car will be staying well and truely grounded dont you worry about that. I do love it as a car and regard this as a minor issue to get sorted.

You took the bait for that one easily :D


So salisbury or Southampton are not beyond the bounds of possibility for a saturday morning booking! Although I need to know that it will be set up exactly right according to spec if I am gonna go there and shell out again.

Regarding Regal, like I said they do have a good name, but the place in Salisbury - I've never used, nor have any feedback, so if you do wanna try them, ask them for some customer testimonies, just to be safe. Ooh, they are just south of Salisbury, on the road to Southampton, and Salisbury is still a pain to get through isn't it!


I will leave carrots for the locals I think, I aint from round ere originally init.

Oooo Arrrrr ;)

[sean red i]

finally got around to getting it done, impressed with job. guy seemed to no what he was talking about.Car had initial check for free then shown print out of faults,given price for what needed adjusting only (£55) lighter in pocket. got all print outs etc, anyway toe was out by 8 degrees (doesnt sound alot),camber etc all ok. problem seems to have gone. get to take car back in 6 weeks (free) to check all adjustments are still where they should be,
sean;) :D

[skymaster]

Blimey! That sounds like a good service on the alignment. Where did you get that done?

[sean red i]

A&A tyres in cardiff. well known in south wales as a specialist. long waiting list to get in there but worth it. do all sorts jig work etc.
sean:D

[Teutonic_Tamer]

toe was out by 8 degrees (doesnt sound alot)

Strewth, 8 degrees is a lot! Don't suppose you can scan and post the before and after adjustments?

Rgds

[sean red i]

when the guy showed me red display 8 degrees didnt think it was much to be honest(shows how much i know.) About scanning in paper work will get missus to do when she gets time (im lucky to find my way around this key board) sean.
car drives alot better,handling feels tighter and even more grippy, steering wheel straight now was slightly of straight before. feels a better ride.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

when the guy showed me red display 8 degrees didnt think it was much to be honest(shows how much i know.)

LOL, you are giving me warped visions of toe out of 20 degrees - and some actually thinking - its' not too bad, is it ;) :biglaugh: .

8 degrees would seriously affected toe-out-on-turns - making the front end scrub and tramp around. I'm surprised you didn't actually notice the adverse wear patterns developing on your front tyres?


About scanning in paper work will get missus to do when she gets time (im lucky to find my way around this key board) sean.

OK, no worries.


car drives alot better,handling feels tighter and even more grippy, steering wheel straight now was slightly of straight before. feels a better ride.

It wouldn't surprise me if you actually notice an improvement in fuel consumption too!

[blairmiller166@]

I've read the previous postings with interest. I've just come back from a tyre aligment check with the news that the camber is out on the drivers side of my 2003 A4 avant. The tracking is in line with Audi's tolerances but the camber is -1.5 deg's. The tyre guys said that it needs some adjustment to the subframe which they couldn't do - and that it would be 'quite a big job'. Has anyone had any experience of this and is it best done at an Audi *******?

Thanks in advance for any responses/direction.

Blair

[skymaster]

I thought I would resurect this thread. With my car I seem to have sorted the problem out. I ditched the Goodyear F1 GSD3 tyres in favour of Michelin Primacy HPs. From that day on I have not experienced the tyre scrubbing on full lock once!

I must also say that the Michelins are all round much better than the F1s on the A4. I used to swear by the F1s on my old golf but I guess the A4 q is a very different beast. Horses for courses as they say.