Knocking suspension and clicking....

[kezbo]

Hey.

First post so here goes...

Ive got a '98 S reg audi A3 1.6 Sport which is great and has now done 107k miles without any major hickups. But recently 2 problems have emerged:

1) Over the last 20k miles ive noticed a loose knocking noise (best way to describe it really) which seams to be coming from the front suspension area, noticeable on all roads even the smoothest. So sounds like something in the front suspension is loose / worn and I think its getting loader and more pronounced. Ive jacked the car to have a look and tugged everthing that might be loose but couldnt find anything. The car has even had several audi services and mots and nothing has caused them concerned. So my question is are there any items which commonly ware or go as a starting point for further investigations and replacements. A mate with a golf said it might be worn top mounts?? The car also steers to the left slightly but tyre wear is perfect if that means anything to anyone?

2) Over the last 1000 miles a clicking noise has become apparent. The 'clicking' I say is speed related - the clicks becoming faster as speed increases. The clicking is fairly quiet and appears to be coming from the front end although im not 100% sure. Now the clicking occurs when moving if the engine is off, idling or reving, so im thinking the problem is gearbox, drivetrain or wheel bearing related. Again could anyone throw any light on this, do any elements ware commonly??

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated as I wanna get these sorted ASAP.

Cheers.

[RickT]

clicking.... Does it do it louder when you turn...

its the drive shaft outers which are worn and need replacing...

Cheers

RiCKT

[kezbo]

Hi thanks for the reply.

Ive tried going round long corners etc and listenning and it doesnt appear to get loader when turning.

Drive shaft outers, the CV joints, is that whats causeing the clicking then?

[RickT]

Its when they get worn, the joins dry out and click...

mine on the a4 have done it now for the last 10k... only round corners tho.. its the outer CV joint... sorry.

RicKT

[av18tor]

Hi.... answers to both your questions.


Firstly the knocking sound is more than likely the lower rear suspension arm, called the curved arm by Audi. These wear out quite regularly as it happens. They cost around £50 ish from G&S and are easy enough to fit as long ad you have a ball joint splitter and a few long reach spanners as it is almost impossible to get to all the nuts/bolts with a socket.


The CV joint problem isnt as bad as Rick states. Knocking from there is normally associated with the joint being dry, not always worn, where the grease has leaked out over the life of the car. A good first fix is to jack the car up. take the affected road wheel off, undo the large jubilee clip type securing ring from the joint (nearest to the brake disc and about 5 inches in diameter)and refill it with grease. You will need a new clip if you don't have the reusable type as on most modern cars. Tightly packing this with grease will, 90% of the time, solve the problem with out the expence of unecessarilly changing the joints which most of the time won't have actually worn out.

Any problems PM me. AV18!

Oh and Rick, I will bet a pint on it, that if you repack the outer joints on your car, the noise will disappear too!

[kezbo]

Ok thanks I think Ill try repacking the CV joints with grease as a first fix.

Just to clarify the 'curved arms' are located to the rear of the front suspension, or on the rear suspension itself. Only reason Im querieying is cos im 95% sure the knocking is coming from the front. Is there anyway of checking these before replacement, i.e. grabbing hold of it and shacking etc??

Cheers.

[av18tor]

Sorry I wasnt clear enough in my description...


On the front suspension on the Audi you have upper and lower arms. On both the upper and lower arms you have arms at the front and arms at the rear.

The arms which almost definately have gone are the lower, rear arms on the front suspension. The front arms, Audi call the bearing arms for some reason; these have been subject of a recall a couple of years back but the rear arms, the curved arms, which also wear, were not.

It is these curved arms I was refering to. You need a tyre lever to check for wear but need to know where you have to prise the joint to check for wear. The sound you refer to is almost 99% the ball joints in the arms clattering away. The joints are not replaceable, it is a complete arm only job.



The knocking noise coming fron the cvj's is usually more prominant when turning on full lock. This noise should disappear when you re pack the cvj boots with grease.

Hope this helps, pm me if not.

[kezbo]

Wicked thats a great help, muchos thanks.

Dont supose you have the part no. and / or gsf part number for these bits do you??

[av18tor]

I'll get them for you in the next day or so....

Pm me where you live and I'll get the local store for you.

[S2AVANT]

The anti-roll bar and it's mounts / linkages can make nasty knocking noises at that mileage and after replacing them our A3 was quiet again.

[av18tor]

We can go to the extremes of what could be causing the noise but lets just focus on what the most likely cause is, without the possibility of a scarey repair bill either.

Av18.

[RickT]

Oh and Rick, I will bet a pint on it, that if you repack the outer joints on your car, the noise will disappear too!


i will give that a go....

however if it does not work i will come looking for BEER!! :beerchug:

Cheers mate!

RicKT

[S2AVANT]

We can go to the extremes of what could be causing the noise but lets just focus on what the most likely cause is, without the possibility of a scarey repair bill either.

Av18.
Check on the (Golf) UKMkivs forum, the most common cause is the one I have written about. :nana:

Scary repair bills won't arise from two bits of rubber and two bits of plastic with ball joints in the ends, now will it?

I use a forum as a source of information, I added my bit. :D

[kezbo]

Hmmm ok so think i need to do more diagnosis before buying parts and fitting them. So how do I check these various parts for wear? Where do i wiggle, stick levers etc

Thanks for all you help guys.

[S2AVANT]

If you can get it onto a two post ramp, see if there is any play in the track rod ends by by holding the wheel at quarter to three and feeling for the play in each side.
Also check the bottom ball joints for play by holding the wheel at half past twelve and seeing if there is movement on it.
An assistant would help by keeping an eye on the two suspects while you move the wheel.
If the car drives fine but has knocking noises which don't seem related to the steering i.e. you can't feel the knock through the wheel I would say it is the Anti-roll bar rubbers and the drop links.
The top mounts always look shot even when new. If the steering groans at all the bearings in the top mounts may be shot.
The drop links are £12 from euro car parts BTW
They are the same as the golf mk4, as is nearly everything on our A3s until you get to the bodywork.

[av18tor]

S2, your advice above will show up play in the wheel bearings ...

You really need the road wheels on the ground to check out the play in the curved arms and the ARB's, track rod ends, drop links etc. Letting them hang under the car will hide all but the very extremes of play owing to the weight of the componants. Tyre levers or similar are needed to check for play in the ball joints and the bushes connecting the arm to the body of the car, arb's etc. etc.

:approve: :approve:

[S2AVANT]

If you are looking at the ball joint/ track rod end, whilst doing what I said, and you see movement in it, then the component has failed.
A wheel bearing makes a droning noise - not reported in this case. Why have you brought that into the discussion?
Furthermore:

Sorry I wasnt clear enough in my description...
On the front suspension on the Audi you have upper and lower arms. On both the upper and lower arms you have arms at the front and arms at the rear.
The arms which almost definately have gone are the lower, rear arms on the front suspension. The front arms, Audi call the bearing arms for some reason; these have been subject of a recall a couple of years back but the rear arms, the curved arms, which also wear, were not.
It is these curved arms I was refering to. You need a tyre lever to check for wear but need to know where you have to prise the joint to check for wear. The sound you refer to is almost 99% the ball joints in the arms clattering away. The joints are not replaceable, it is a complete arm only job.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p4/S2Avant/A3front.jpg
Where are all these arms you are talking about?
This post is about an A3, not an A4.
This is an A4:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p4/S2Avant/A4front.jpg

We can go to the extremes of what could be causing the noise but lets just focus on what the most likely cause is, without the possibility of a scarey repair bill either.
Av18.
How scarey would the repair bill be if you were ordering parts for the wrong car?
Your previous description is a good representation of the A4 - it is nothing like the A3.
There aren't any upper arms on the A3, there is one lower arm (track control arm) and the two bushes and one ball joint are all replaceable, as I have done them myself. (Not to cure the knocking noise BTW)
If everything else has been checked and there are no apparent problems, but the knocking noise still persists then it is the ARB links and bushes. Due to their location it is difficult to get at them with a pry bar and so they cannot easily be checked.
On an A3 with the mileage stated at the top of this thread, items 18 and 17 (Drop links and anti-rool bar bushes) in the above ETKA drawing will be due for replacement (both sides).

[kezbo]

Thanks guys, Im abit confused! Think I need to jack the car with the suspension in the loaded position and wiggle things, cos I dont wanna buy parts when I dont need them, cant afford that.

[RickT]

can i ask where you got a copy of that manual from for the A4?? did yopu purchase it?? any chance of a copy??

RicKT

[S2AVANT]

can i ask where you got a copy of that manual from for the A4?? did you purchase it?? any chance of a copy??

RicKT
If I tell you, I would have to kill you. ;)

[kezbo]

Ok, today I jacked the car, put axel stands below the suspension arms - essentially to allow me under the car with the suspension in the 'loaded' position. I then pushed, proded everything I could find with hands, screw drivers and a breaker bar. This is what I found:

The bush / joint to the wishbone where bolt number 6 runs though on the etka diagram can be moved both up and down fairly easily - is this normal or not? Also the rubber to this bush is perished slightly.

There may be some lateral movement in the front upper anti roll bar bush (labelled 21) in the diagram. Ill prob replace this as a precaution as it looks like a fairly simple part and prob dont cost a great deal.

So the question is do we think what I have found specifically the first item could be causing my knocking? Cheers for all your help guys.

[S2AVANT]

Knocking is usually a ball joint of some type which has too much play in it - hence the knocking.
The rear track control arm bush is not easy to replace, and I don't think this would cause a knock.
Can you undo one of the drop links from the anti roll bar and see it there is any play in it? I think they have a small hexagon in the end of the thread for an allen key.
If it has been serviced and MOTed without any issues,I think that is the source of your knocking noise.
It was on mine and many others I have read about. The ARB bushes also squeak sometimes.

[kezbo]

Ok guys, bit of an update.

I talked to some parts guys at audi and opted to change the anti roll bar bushes and link rods cos they were fairly cheap, which I have now done. Also got a new set of front tyres and tracking done, but thats cos they were bald. The knocking is definately better but not gone. So what should i be looking at now: replaceing ball joints, tie rod ends, the whole wishbone thing with bushes in?

Cheers for your help.

[really wants an RS6]

Hi, the knocking sounds like the bottom balljoints to me,and if you can't identify which side the knocking is coming from then change them both as they are not expensive from GSF or Eurocarparts and while you have it jacked up change the bottom wishbone bushes as they are about 10 quid or so a side, strut top bushes go very infrequently so I would leave those alone but the life would depend on the type of roads it has been driven on.
The clicking could be a cv joint but it would click while pulling out of a junction with the wheel turned, and not in a straight line with no power on.
Diagnosis over the phone is bad enough and the internet is worse so none of this is definitive but that is the way I would go, plus none of it is particularly hard and you need no special tools.

[S2AVANT]

You need a press for the wishbone bushes.

[really wants an RS6]

Knock them out with a hammer and chisel, push them in with a vice and an appropriately sized socket.

[S2AVANT]

Do you know what size the front bush is?

[really wants an RS6]

Not off hand mate no, suppose I could go under my car and have a look if you really need to know.

[S2AVANT]

You would need to know if you had the correct sized socket before you started. ;)
I've done mine and I don't think you could do them in vice. I used a press.

[clackers]

My car just failed on bottom ball joint. you can get after market ones which bolt on, providing the one already on your car has a bolted bottom ball joint!! If not, you could always get a grinder on it.....but make sure you are grinding the right bit first!!!! Usually best to get a garage to double check it first.
Knocking cured to a degree, but I think it may still need anti roll bar bushes doing...is it a big job, didn't really look at them whilst I was under the motor.
BIG ps, if your rear suspension bushes have gone on your car......don't I stress, don't attempt to change them on the drive outside your house unless you have the correct tool in which to replace them!!!!!!!:aargh4:
You will need a manual press in order to get them back in........they aren't cheap and you will only need it once in your cars life probably!!! Find someone who has got one BEFORE starting the job.........a voice of experience here!!!!:Blush2:

[kezbo]

Ok so another update,

Fitted new wishbones including the new bushes and lower ball joints, could be ***** with trying to source a press to change bushes so bought the whole new assemble. Well the suspension seams alot smoother not as 'crashy' as it was, something id obviously got used to over the miles. So im happy i fitted the wishbones cos it obviously needed them. BUT the origional knocking is still there, think it might be alittle better but still there argggghhhhh!!!! So what is the next likely cause: top mounts or steering arm ball joints is all i could think of, everthing else bar the shocks are new i think....

Cheers for your help.

P.s. for whoever asked front anti roll bar bushes are a piece of ****, access abit tight but easy enough if u got a good toolbox.