Steering wants to go it's own way on uneven ground!

[Dudey Head]

My 94 coupe 2.6 has a very annoying habit of wanting to pull me left or right when driving over an uneven bit ground. A bumpy bit of road or even crossing the white lines in the middle of the road to pass a parked car will do it, when 1 half of the car is on the opposite camber of the road it will try pull one way or another & I have to correct the steering. I've had the car for about 3 & a half years & can't remember whether it did it when I first had it, I don't think so. It had the original springs cut down on it at first. To try to sort this out I've had the tracking etc. looked at a few times and replaced both wishbones & bushes, the top mounts and fitted Koni springs & adjustable dampers all round (which incidentally leave the front of the car slightly higher than the back which is annoying!) Has anyone any idea what's causing this as it's really annoying and I suppose potentially dangerous! I've been told by a mechanic mate that it's possibly because it's lowered & the castor/ camber is out now!? :1zhelp:

[JimSharp39]

Tyres? some tyre patterns can be very directional and wear can cause excessive white-lining

Jim

[Dudey Head]

I've tried a couple of different tyre types. It's running on 17" Kahn RS-S alloys with 215/ 45 R17 tyres, but a change from Avon's to Falken's haven't made any difference. It used to destroy Avons quite quickly along the inside edge but the Falkens seem OK 18 months on! Maybe that's also to do with new suspension/ top mounts/ wishbones etc. Both types I've used have been directional.

:confused:

[Dudey Head]

Does anyone know if the camber is adjustable? I've been told that it is & that i
it isn't by different people! :confused:

I noticed the near side front tyre is wearing along the outer edge yesterday,

it'd been fine until the tracking was fiddled with a couple of months ago & the

tracking rods replaced. I'm running out of things to replace & it's not cheap

rebuilding the front of the car bottom up! :( Steering rack? Not cheap...

[LowerRag]

mine used to drift of on uneven roads and once driving through small potholes they woould pull the car to one side... mine was tyre pressure related

hth

[scotty33]

There is a steering damper underneath the battery tray, maybe this is 'tired'?

There is adjustment for the camber, the two bolts where the strut bolts onto the wheel bearing housing have some clearance for adjustment.

How are your front subframe bushes? If worn these may not be helping.

My old 80 and my brother's 90 both had 40 series tyres on, we both ended up a bit paranoid about the ride and every clunk of the suspension. I'm a bit more laid back about it all with this coupe, but mine is a bit vague now so also time for some tlc..

[Dudey Head]

Cheers for that, a couple of new angles to look at it from, I'll consult my mechanic chum & get him to have nosy!

:biggthump

[scotty33]

but mine is a bit vague now so also time for some tlc..

I had a puncture yesterday:zx11:, found I have a track rod end gone - which I'm quite pleased about, easier than doing wishbone bushes!:D

[Dudey Head]

I had the tracking rods done a coupla months ago, they were seized apparently. I thought that may have solved my probs but should have known better!

:rant:

Wishbone bushes are absolute pain in the posterior! Easier to just replace the whole wishbone!!
Least you not got all that malarky to sort out eh?

:drive:

[scotty33]

I had the tracking rods done a coupla months ago, they were seized apparently. I thought that may have solved my probs but should have known better!

:rant:



Yes I have a spare pair which I swapped in last year, I think I may need to free the old ones off ready!

How are your tyres wearing - since the track rods were done?

[scotty33]

I had a successful day yesterday, changed the track rods, also found an antiroll bar link worn - this must have made all of the noises I was getting, car drives better than ever now.
On a side note, I had Kumho Ecsta tyres fitted on the front 215 45 17's in place of the 225's before. I heard about these off the motorgeek forum, where they have good reviews. I drove it in the rain friday - before the tracking work, was very impressed. Hope they last ok, also hope it rains again soon!

[Dudey Head]

In answer to the tyres wearing since the tracking etc. being done, I don't think it's made a difference. They're starting to go around the inside a bit now, but they've lasted a HELL of a lot longer than the Avons did.
I was reading something the other day about the toe settings, apparently if the front wheels are slightly toe-out the car will steer easier but be harder to keep in a straight line and the tyres will wear on the inside quicker. Hmmm... sounds like my symptoms. Thing is though, when I've had it in for fiddling I've asked that they check the whole set up, all the front wheel geometry. Makes you wonder whether they actually bothered!! Can but get it specifically inspected I suppose!
Those tyres sound pretty good, gonna need some on the front soon now, how much were they?
You'll no doubt have your rain wish granted soon!

[scotty33]

I have Avons on the back, the tyre fitters warned me that they do not last well. As I bought them elsewhere, it was too late to argue!
I asked for a quote for their cheapest tyres, which were £60, the ecsta's were £67, so I decided to try them.
Your symptoms sounds like my car was, obviously my tracking was a little 'variable' with the rod end gone, but both tyres were more worn on the inside.
I don't have much faith in the kind of garage that 'specialises' in tyres and tracking. audi 80 track rods are notorious for being 'seized' - sometimes they are. Sometimes the fitter is not familiar with what needs to be done.
The locknuts need to be undone - obviously
Less obvious is that at this point, the adjuster is still locked solid. - The locknut pushes against a tapered sleeve (female taper), which rides up a male taper on the end of the track rod or rod end. also the track rod and the rod end have 4 short splits in them to allow the thread to flex and bite down tight onto the adjuster. The adjuster has one right hand and one left hand thread, which means when everything IS freed off, the tracking can be adjusted without disconnecting anything i.e. turn one way to lengthen and other way to shorten the track rod assembly.
ok rant over, sorry if you knew all that already, but I'm sure it'll help someone? I'll do a how to:, shortly with pictures
I forgot to mention earlier, the camber can also be adjusted at the bottom ball joint, its mounting to the wishbone is slotted, so the 'effective' length/(width?) here can be altered, this also affects the toe, as does disturbing the two bolts which secure the strut tube to the wheel bearing housing. If you had work done which affected these parts this could be why the toe seems to be out?

[Dudey Head]

You, sir, are a splendid wealth of knowledge!

:notworthy

[ini]

I am guessing that the car does not have standard wheels/tyres on it?

Fitting a wider, lower profile wheel tyre combination, (generally a lower offset) will alter the geometry slightly, and help to accentuate the wandering/tramlining.

[Dudey Head]

Would that actually create a problem or merely accentuate an existing one? There's a lot of cars about that are lower & on different wheels than when they left the factory. I often wonder if many other people have the same issue. Assuming of course that it is a result of Koni & Kahn type fiddlings!

:dunno:

[scotty33]

Hi

kind words above there, :beerchug:

In my experience, low profile tyres are fun for the positive feedback, but you can't switch this off when you're not having fun. ie normal driving. tramlining roadnoise and bumpsteer come as part of the package. But as you say, any fault or misalignment is magnified.
I know you fitted new wishbones but are the bushes still ok? Also worn topmounts can allow the struts to move about giving a 'vague' feel.
Depending how the suspension was dismantled previously, I would get the camber and toe set up at an alignment place that is recommended to you by a few different sources, but make sure everything is in good shape before you go?

[Dudey Head]

Any recommendations anywhere North West/ North Wales/ Midlands?? A bit of travelling to somewhere decent to have a proper look is no problem.

[scotty33]

Hi

I can't advise you where to go but this is what needs to be done:


http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/scotty33_bucket/SSM10939.jpg

Adjuster showing one left hand and one right hand thread, when free, turn the adjuster one way to shorten the track rod = toe in, or turn the other way to lengthen the track rod = toe out. There should be no need to disconnect the track rod end from the strut

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/scotty33_bucket/SSM10929.jpg

Both Locknuts loosened off, 22mm spanner required. When the assembly is covered with rust and road grime, you might think at this point the adjuster is free to move? IT IS STILL LOCKED SOLID

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/scotty33_bucket/SSM10930.jpg

The 22mm spanner and hammer/mallet can now be used to dislodge the tapered locking sleeves

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/scotty33_bucket/SSM10932.jpg

You can see the tapered end of the track rod end, the track rod is the same. Both have 4 small slots cut into them , this allows the tapered bit to flex and securely clamp the threaded adjuster inside, something like a jewellers screwdriver is ideal for scraping these slots clear, to apply releasing oil. With both sides of the adjuster undone the adjuster should be able to move - 14mm spanner size.

[Dudey Head]

There is a steering damper underneath the battery tray, maybe this is 'tired'?

Hi scotty, any idea if there's a part no. for this? Hopefully gonna get some investigations underway on the weekend.

The Kumho's still impressing? I'm having a nosy online for some prices to give 'em a go. My front tyres are kaput around the inside now.

cheers.

[scotty33]

Hi

As far as I can tell, the part no. for the damper is 8A1 425 021 (94 v6 rhd). I would not rush to change this, especially if the tyres are not wearing evenly. It sounds like your tracking is either toeing out or variable due to something being worn. As already mentioned, this could be due to the camber being altered somewhere along the line?
Have you checked the wishbone bushes and top mounts are still ok? You may already know this, but the weight of the car should be on the wheels when the wishbone pivot pinchbolts are tightened this is to ensure that the bushes are in an unstressed condition at their 'neutral' position. If this is not done, they wear out quickly.
I really am impressed with the kumho's so far, for the money they are stupidly good in the wet (I just need bigger balls now..) not too shabby in the dry. And since I altered/corrected the tracking again mpg's are on the up

[Dudey Head]

Been doing a bit of further research into this (not actually had the car on a ramp yet due to dosh but should in the next couple of weeks).
I've been told it's debatable whether the camber is adjustable enough to cater for a 40mm drop with the Koni kit (assuming it's that that's causing the problems.) A good combination that apparently quite a few folks have tried successfully is Koni dampers & Audi sport springs which are about 20mm lower than standard & will have been intended to keep the camber within the standard range (so I'm told).
As far as getting the wheel geometry set up, Pro-Align affiliated workshops come recommended. Pro-Align make the equipment & train the operators & have links to independent workshops/ garages all over the country that use their epuipment & have had their training. See more here: http://www.pro-align.co.uk/
The really interesting bit is that they have developed software (called WinAlign tuner) that will calculate the new geomety that will be required to set up a lowered car properly.
http://www.pro-align.co.uk/products/wheelaligners/pswinaligntuner-a.htm
Funds allowing, get everything checked out (especially subframe bush & steering damper as they've not been replaced) & then get it in to somewhere with the WinAlign tuner software.
If it's too low to be sorted I'll concede defeat & put the Audi sport springs on. We shall see...

[Dudey Head]

I noticed that my CV joints are clattering like a Siberian skinny-dipper's teeth! Anyone any idea if that could be related to the problems at hand? They obviously need replacing.

[Crasher]

The camber is adjustable on the ball joints and this should be done before the tracking. Lowering it will make the camber go negative and I have even had to machine back the wishbones to get enough camber adjustment. Where did you buy the wishbones? I have seen people fit none power steering wishbones which have the wrong bushes and the best wishbones are genuine Audi. I also prefer to fit Powerflex wishbone bushes which really help. What is the front ride height as measured from the centre of the wheel to the lower edge of the wheel arch?

[Dudey Head]

The camber is adjustable on the ball joints and this should be done before the tracking. Lowering it will make the camber go negative and I have even had to machine back the wishbones to get enough camber adjustment. Where did you buy the wishbones? I have seen people fit none power steering wishbones which have the wrong bushes and the best wishbones are genuine Audi. I also prefer to fit Powerflex wishbone bushes which really help. What is the front ride height as measured from the centre of the wheel to the lower edge of the wheel arch?


Hi, thanks for taking a look. All the work has been done by a family friend who has been a mechanic for 30+ years & ran his own business for years, so he's not a have-a-go Harry or anything. He Usually sources the parts & has said on several occasions that he won't supply cheapo parts, so I presume they're genuine, if not then I trust him to have used a decent non-genuine part, I'll have to ask him.
From what I can tell in the dark the ride height is about 330-335mm. You may have noted that I said the ride height at the front is slightly higher, there's a bit of a story there. When the kit was delivered in a big plain cardboard box I didn't open it, I just put it in the car & took it round to the said friend for him to fit & left him to it. He rang me a while later saying there were no front springs in there. The dampers were individually boxed in Koni packaging & there was a set of rear springs, all in the big box. (since later found out after ordering a 'Koni suspension kit' that Koni don't actually make springs!) I immediately got on the phone to the shop I ordered from & got lots of apologetic banter & reassured the front springs would be there ASAP. They did turn up a couple of days later & the front suspension was done. The difference in height isn't massive so I didn't think too much of it.
It's been about 8 or 9 months now since I bought the kit & only recently has it dawned on me that they probably just shoved any compatible springs in! It's a bit late to moan now, I think trading standards say you should return anything you're unhappy with (not broken, just unhappy with) within 3 months. Plus the hassle & expense of dismantling everything to try & find a reference or product code etc. I've disappointed myself with being so incredibly slow on this one!
This is part of the reason why I'm thinking of keeping the dampers & junking the springs. If the camber is not the issue, then I'll prob go for a lowered spring set, maybe Weitec, instead of the Audi Sport springs.
I've discussed this problem on another forum & everyone seems to think it's the camber, but I'm not that sure, it's not visibly out when you look down the flank of the car, so it's not ridiculously out like some lowered cars you see that have noticable negative camber & the car was quite a bit lower at the front on the old springs & absolutely nothing has improved in respect to this problem after the suspension was changed, the track rod ends were done & the tracking done (the latter two by an Audi tuning specialist). :confused:
It's one of those lingering issues that no matter what I do, it doesn't seem to get sorted. It seemed quite hopeful when I saw TDiBoraSam's post the other day. I like the look & feel of it being lower, so I'm hoping it'll be a similar issue to his!
Sorry this has turned into an essay, thanks again. :1zhelp:

[Crasher]

With a standard ride height of approx 380-mm that is a lowering rate of roughly 50-mm, quite a lot. Did he re-use the original 85-mm long front bump stop (893 412 131) or fit shorter ones?

I was the UK Weitec importer for nearly 10 years before KW stabbed me in the back but the springs for that car are quite good. I still sell Weitec if that is what you want but as I am now the UK importer for Vogtland I would suggest their spring set 950035 which give a 40-mm drop. These must be used with shortened bump stops and we use the 65-mm long 893 412 131 B which is a direct replacement for the original and works with the 811 412 135 B dust shield common to both bump stops. At the back we tend to use the original bump stop which is short enough.

[Dudey Head]

With a standard ride height of approx 380-mm that is a lowering rate of roughly 50-mm, quite a lot. Did he re-use the original 85-mm long front bump stop (893 412 131) or fit shorter ones?

I was the UK Weitec importer for nearly 10 years before KW stabbed me in the back but the springs for that car are quite good. I still sell Weitec if that is what you want but as I am now the UK importer for Vogtland I would suggest their spring set 950035 which give a 40-mm drop. These must be used with shortened bump stops and we use the 65-mm long 893 412 131 B which is a direct replacement for the original and works with the 811 412 135 B dust shield common to both bump stops. At the back we tend to use the original bump stop which is short enough.

Hmm... it really doesn't look that low, that is quite a lot! I'll measure it again this afternoon when I get chance, then I can see properly! I presume the standard bump stops were used, I'll consult.
As for the springs, I'm open to suggestions, what do you think will work well with Koni dampers? I believe Koni & H&R springs are a good combination, but I'd rather not pay about £100 more! With a 40mm drop being within camber-fiddling parameters?
Do you think it is likely to be the camber that's causing the wandering & tramlining & general lack of steering feel? These cars are known not to have the best steering feedback in the world, but mine is just ridiculous! Or do think it maybe along TDiBoraSam's problems.
I suppose it's impossible to diagnose with having a nosy!

[TDiBoraSam]

An interesting thread!

I can sympathise with you with reagrd to spending money doing one thing after another and it never getting sorted, it's so disappointing to pick the car up from the garage having forked out another couple of hundred quid, and it's still the same!

My steering was so awful that I was convinced it had to be a problem at the front...ie, when I went over a white line it would move the steering wheel, so I assumed this was due to the front wheels going over the line, but I now realise it was the condition of the rear bushes allowing the back of the car to move laterally that was actually pulling the stering wheel.

I drive the same route to work and back each day, and since the rear bushes were done I've not had any steering problems along the roads where I used to, such as on paint lines and certain corners. I'm not having to correct the steering any more, and I can now drive in a straight line when it's windy!

Is there a tension adjustment screw on your steering rack? Mind you, if you've had this replaced, the rack won't be the problem....just a thought.

[TDiBoraSam]

PS: Dudley - whereabouts in mid-Cheshire are you? I'm from the Winsford/Middlewich area.

[Dudey Head]

An interesting thread!

I can sympathise with you with reagrd to spending money doing one thing after another and it never getting sorted, it's so disappointing to pick the car up from the garage having forked out another couple of hundred quid, and it's still the same!

My steering was so awful that I was convinced it had to be a problem at the front...ie, when I went over a white line it would move the steering wheel, so I assumed this was due to the front wheels going over the line, but I now realise it was the condition of the rear bushes allowing the back of the car to move laterally that was actually pulling the stering wheel.

I drive the same route to work and back each day, and since the rear bushes were done I've not had any steering problems along the roads where I used to, such as on paint lines and certain corners. I'm not having to correct the steering any more, and I can now drive in a straight line when it's windy!

Is there a tension adjustment screw on your steering rack? Mind you, if you've had this replaced, the rack won't be the problem....just a thought.


The steering rack is one of the few parts that haven't been done. Yet! :(
I spoke to my mechanic friend before, he's going to get it on a ramp on Sunday. I'll mention that to him, cheers. :approve:

[Crasher]

I suspect the car is sitting on the bump stops and that will make it feel awful and will also break the top mounts. I would also suggest Powerflex front wishbone bushes to tighten up the steering response. Personally I don’t think those un-shortened Koni’s work well with anything other than standard springs, a car lowered by even 40-mm needs shortened dampers. Do the springs come loose in the seats if the wheels are off the deck?

The racks on those are extremely reliable.

[Dudey Head]

I suspect the car is sitting on the bump stops and that will make it feel awful and will also break the top mounts. I would also suggest Powerflex front wishbone bushes to tighten up the steering response. Personally I don’t think those un-shortened Koni’s work well with anything other than standard springs, a car lowered by even 40-mm needs shortened dampers. Do the springs come loose in the seats if the wheels are off the deck?

The racks on those are extremely reliable.


I thought they were shorter? You can get a set of fronts called the 'sport short' that says they're for 50mm+ lowering: http://www.koni.com/index.php?id=254
Or have I been misled yet again? As is often the way!
To be honest, I'm inclined to just get the car down to you some time soon. It's got a couple of more urgent things to do at the mo, the remaining bit of the original exhaust, basically the downpipes, is rattling & blowing where they meet & join to the Jetex section so that needs sorting ASAP, & the brake warning light flashed me earlier, so that's being investigated on Sunday. Unfortunately I don't have the dosh at the mo to just bring it down & get everything sorted at once, which would be nice!
A lot of S2 owners swear by Koni dampers & H&R springs though. :p

[Dudey Head]

PS: Dudley - whereabouts in mid-Cheshire are you? I'm from the Winsford/Middlewich area.

Hey Sam, not far away at all. I'm in the wicked wich of the North, capiche!? :D

[TDiBoraSam]

Well, living there, the ride of your car will get disrupted by all the uneven roads due to subsidence of the salt mines!

Over in Winsford, my problem is the huge number and size of speed humps which keep wrecking every car I own!

I'm no expert, but if you need a 'layman's' opinion on your car's handling from a completely fresh point of view, I ain't far away.:Blush:

[Dudey Head]

the brake warning light flashed me earlier, so that's being investigated on Sunday.

There's nothing seemingly wrong with the brakes, but it's still lit up!
I started a seperate thread on it:
http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=43798