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Balamike
02-03-2008, 08:05 PM
My daughter was driving along slowly just around the corner from home the other day and the car started lurching. Thought she'd hit a cat or something so backed up. Big bang and oil all over the floor.

The picture shows what happened. From the marks on the parts that we found on the road, it looks like something got caught between the teeth that can just be seen inside the hole and the bell housing, and the housing was the first bit to give. The speed of exit was such that it also knocked off the small lug nearby, causing the small hole.

Can anyone tell me if this is a common occurrence?
- oh and I've been quoted £185 for a gearbox by my local scrapyard. Does that sound reasonable?

The car is F registration GTI MKII 16V and it's done 130k miles. Rest of it's in pretty decent nick though.

thanks

Crasher
02-03-2008, 08:32 PM
Very common with the 020 and even more so on the 2Y version used in the 16v Golf 2, when my wife’s blew (hers is an 8v) it showered a moron tailgating her in a BMW with oil, smoke and shrapnel, every cloud has a silver lining :D

It is even more common on the near relative of this box, the 02K that is used in the Golf 4/A3 etc.

£185 is about right for a very good example of a 2Y but it must be a 2Y code box and these are getting rare due to this problem which is either diff rivet or diff pin failure. It is even possible that the cat doesn’t have a 2Y box in now so take care. If you fitted a box from an 8v and it had a 2Y box in, you would be very upset to hear the clutch disc spinning on the input shaft when you tried to move it.

Balamike
03-03-2008, 03:24 PM
Very common with the 020 and even more so on the 2Y version used in the 16v Golf 2, when my wife’s blew (hers is an 8v) it showered a moron tailgating her in a BMW with oil, smoke and shrapnel, every cloud has a silver lining :D

It is even more common on the near relative of this box, the 02K that is used in the Golf 4/A3 etc.

£185 is about right for a very good example of a 2Y but it must be a 2Y code box and these are getting rare due to this problem which is either diff rivet or diff pin failure. It is even possible that the cat doesn’t have a 2Y box in now so take care. If you fitted a box from an 8v and it had a 2Y box in, you would be very upset to hear the clutch disc spinning on the input shaft when you tried to move it.

according to my Haines manual, the 2Y box is otherwise known as the 085. Is that right? I've got a couple of friends checking up for me locally for these, so would like to make sure it's the right one I'm asking for! Also, I've been told there is very little difference between the box on the 8v and on this, in fact that I can use a box from an 8v so long as the drive shaft flanges are the same size. Can you comment on that please?

Crasher
03-03-2008, 04:52 PM
No, the 085 is the five speed 1.3 box, usually an 8N. The ratios for a 16v and an 8v are different for 2nd and 5th (in fact there are two types of 8v GTI second gear) and the input shaft for a 2Y is larger having 28 splines compared to the 8v’s 24 so if you put an 8v box on a 16v clutch, it wouldn’t transfer power. The reason is the completely different power characteristics of a 8v to a 16v.

Balamike
10-03-2008, 05:45 PM
No, the 085 is the five speed 1.3 box, usually an 8N. The ratios for a 16v and an 8v are different for 2nd and 5th (in fact there are two types of 8v GTI second gear) and the input shaft for a 2Y is larger having 28 splines compared to the 8v’s 24 so if you put an 8v box on a 16v clutch, it wouldn’t transfer power. The reason is the completely different power characteristics of a 8v to a 16v.

Thanks Crasher, although I've got to admit to being a little confused now. It looks like (yet again) Mr Haynes has duff info in one of his manuals. I think that what you are saying is that I get the right box, an 020/2Y or it won't work? - and there's no way to make it work apart from that. It also looks like these are getting a bit rare.......Sorry for being quite so pedantic, but I'm getting conflicting info from a friend who is keen to help, but I don't want him wasting his time, or my money come to that!

Crasher
10-03-2008, 06:44 PM
I have a 91 16v in at the moment with an 8v GTI box in and it feels wrong to drive, he wasn't told what was being done and thought he was getting the correct box. Now I am trying to source a re-uildable 2Y to put back in.

Smutts
17-05-2008, 11:24 AM
Are VW still using those crap rivets?! If you are rebuilding an 020 gearbox, get a bolt kit (VW part No. 171 498 088 A) to replace those stupid crownwheel rivets. They WILL drop off eventually. (How do I know this?:zx11:) Do check the part number though, at your own risk!:beerchug:

Balamike
17-05-2008, 09:40 PM
Maybe I should admit that I allowed my daughter to talk me into buying her a reconditioned box and her boyfriend paid for a local garage to fit it.
Total bill was about the same as the value of the car - perhaps even more.

Not convinced it was a wise decision, but we aren't here to be wise are we? - just to drive VWs ;)

Crasher
17-05-2008, 10:56 PM
Are VW still using those crap rivets?!

They have been using the exact same system since 1973 and are still using it, even though they have been exploding since 1974!

Smutts
25-05-2008, 07:17 PM
"They have been using the exact same system since 1973 and are still using it, even though they have been exploding since 1974!"

For this simple reason I will refuse to buy a new VW, I will warn my friends about this if they consider buying a new Seat, Skoda, VW. It seems cynical to save 50 pence a gearbox to use such a squalid engineering practice. I can take the risk with the old nails that I drive, but premium very hard earned money? Don't start me on the joys of dual mass flywheels.:mad:

As I dont have two pennies to bless my **** with, VAG won't be too worried.:p

sdcmscbgc
13-06-2008, 12:42 PM
Hi,
I intend to rebuild my Golf III Tdi (95 M). I was thinking of changing the gearbox (ASD) with a 6 speed. Which if any is compatable? and has it been done before?:confused:

Crasher
13-06-2008, 01:40 PM
The 02M and 02Q boxes are quite big so you could use the 02S 6 speed from the Golf 5 platform as this box is closely related to the 5 speed 02A used in the Golf 3 TDI 90 and the five speed 02J used in the Golf 4 so that would make it easier for you to get the box in and get it working.

badersbus
15-06-2008, 04:44 PM
After reading this thread with alarm (why do manufacturers skimp on simple stuff like rivets?) , i got to thinking about my lads gearbox. He is rebuilding a mk1 caddy , and putting a 1.6td motor and 5 speed box in out of a mk2 1992 j-reg golf van. Would this problem apply to this box , and also what would you people recommend to check or have done to it while it is already out of the car?.
Thanks chaps
Kirk;)

Smutts
15-06-2008, 06:19 PM
If the car is in bits, and he is going to keep it for a few years, and there is someone you can find who actually KNOWS what they are doing, it could save a lot of grief later on. :aargh4:

Could the metal scientists out there explain what causes the sodding things to drop off after 130,000 miles or so? Lack of tensile preload etc.?:confused:

Crasher
15-06-2008, 08:45 PM
Badersbus, they do it to save money on the build to be competitive and stay in the business of making cars. It is very difficult to explain the way a bean counters mind works but try this. About a decade ago, VAG started to adopt the Jap method of bolt and nut production in that they would make an M10 nut or bolt 16-mm across flats (referred to as SW for spanner width) instead of 17-mm (the Japs even went to 15-mm). As a mechanic you think, why did they do that? Well consider that VAG as a company may use a certain number of tens of millions of M10 SW 17 nuts each year so changing the SW to 16-mm saves a tiny amount of steel for each nut/bolt. Extrapolate that out into literally billions of nut/bolt heads over decades and you will save thousands of tonnes of steel and therefore millions of Euros. Now look at the diff question, which costs more- a bolt and spreader plate that has to be assembled by hand and then tightened down or a wham bam thank you mam hot forged set of six rivets fitted in seconds? If it lasts three years that is all they care about.

Smutts
15-06-2008, 08:59 PM
So what answer is there to give to all those people that used to buy a VW because it was built up to a specification rather than built down to a price?:(

Citroen, Peugeot, Ford?:1zhelp:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:M5W4cZBXXPgJ:www.vwtransaxles.com/rivet.html+transmission+rivet&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk

Crasher
15-06-2008, 09:06 PM
And so you think it is only VAG that do this. Look into the Ford Pinto scandal in the USA when people were being burnt to death due to a tiny defect in the right hand rear light unit that would cause an explosion in an accident. It was a few dollars worth to fix it on the line and maybe a hundred or so in a recall, so they decided that the cost of the fried victims it would cause was less than the cost of a recall so they let it go. It’s nothing new, just business, the job of keeping people in work. Life isn’t perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcNeorjXMrE

Smutts
16-06-2008, 12:27 AM
I were a bit tongue in cheek!;)

Crasher
16-06-2008, 10:42 AM
And I’m hanging on too tight.