Plenum Chamber flood-recall

[graham lawlor]

Starting a new thread further to my previuos "SIEZED BRAKES".Have done some searching on all forums and realised that the plenum chambers are subject to a recall.My 2001 Y reg a4 has been suffering all kinds of vacume problems.Now it seems to be an ingress of water from the plenum chamber under the battery.Somehow this water is sucked into the system via the servo.I rang my dealer (Bolton) and asked if there had been a recall due to this problem.OH YES!!!!. :zx11::zx11::zx11: Thanks to JASTONV "passat brakes-beware" on Passat b5 forum.

[dermot]

Do you know if this applies to 2001 S4 avant ?

If it possible to check on line if it is subject to recall. I thought the DVLA might keep records.

[Crasher]

The recall is very sophisticated; it involves shoving a screw driver through the drain tubes. As to whether they will replace the servo is an unknown, I have pointed lots of people in the direction of Audi over this and they have always refused. The problem with the recall is it will not prevent the problem from re-occurring. Removing the drain tubes is not an option either, should the car develop a pre cat exhaust leak (on a petrol engine) Carbon Monoxide gas would be drawn into the heating system.

[graham lawlor]

Had the recall yesterday and took about 45 mins.

The servo was not replaced as was not part of recall.This is called "Consequential Damage" and must be cleared by Audi UK.

Was given contact number and is now going through channels.

To find out if your car is on the list, just call your dealer and ask.Simple as that.

Also been told this has now been added to future service schedule, so the problem does not come back.

Graham.

[Crasher]

It has been on my service schedule recommendation for five years including on the Passat and now the Superb, which also suffers. The trouble is not many people like paying the extra half an hour we charge.

[graham lawlor]

Good result from Audi.

As they never told me about the recall,they will replace my servo and any other consequential damage they find.

On inspection,they saw my servo full of water. Had this pumped out through hose outlet and now brakes work like new.

Will still have servo changed due to residual water damage.Some rutting to discs also after pads dragging for some months.:D:D:D

[Crasher]

Good result.

[Bitzer]

Hi, I have an Audi 2002 A4 which had the same problem resulting in both the master cylinder and brake servo requiring replacement due to water damage (£600). Both my local audi dealer and audi UK have said that they will not pay for the consequential damage as the recall was not safety related they did not have to notify me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Safety vrs no brakes - what planet are they on!

What did you say to them to get them to pay? As I now face the long winded process of taking the dealer where I bought the car to court!!!!

[fyvie11]

Hi I have a 2001 b6 a4 130tdi and I am also having brake problems. It started by the pedal going tight with very little movement this was an intermitant problem, followed by the brake pedal sticking down during an MOT it poped back up and was fine for about a week then i felt the brake pedal going tight again and all brakes seemed to be slightly sticking on and heating up by the time i got home.
as a result I have not drove the car the last few days until I find out the fault.
going by this thread I will be expecting the servo to be full of water and possibly damage to the master cylinder. Is it just a case of unbolting the master cylinder to confirm if the servo is full of water and is it posible to drain the servo and replace the brake fluid if corrosion isnt to bad ie early stages.
Finaly whats the best way to drain the servo and where is it I need to make a drain hole to stop water filling the servo again ps any pics would be good fyvie11@hotmail.com

[Crasher]

Yes, drop the M/C back to check for corrosion damage but the servo will be corroded internally if it has water inside and will have to be replaced.

[fyvie11]

thanks for the reply i was afrade I would get that reply is there any way of checking the master cylinder for internal corrosion or is it a sealed unit.
would the servo being full of water cause the brakes to all stick on or is this a sign of water in master cylinder

[desmondman]

I think you are trying to get Audi to pay for repairs outside their onus of liability ..or else every design that was NOT faultless at production & continued to be free from maintenance & w&t ...that perfect machine .. does not exist I'm afraid.If you can't afford a vehicles running costs..buy a bicycle ! http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Crasher]

The master cylinder is effectively a sealed unit and should not be stripped and the servo is defiantly not a serviceable unit. If the back of the master cylinder is damaged due to corrosion of the alloy and the steel push rod, it should also be replaced.

Desmondman, I think what you are saying is that once a vehicle is over three years old, it is the owner’s problem and they should stop whining about having work done under warranty and I agree in most circumstances except where it is a safety issue due to a design fault. With the drain tube issue I don’t feel it is a design fault but a maintenance issue and also one that the owner could help against by trying not to park under foliage if at all possible which I realise isn’t always possible. What I would like to know is when did the strict 365 day warranty on a new car become a negotiable three years and a bit more? When I read about someone with a six year old Polo complaining about a problem and saying that as it is common the repair should be free, it does irritate me intensely, you bought the car so you have to pay to fix it; if you want a long warranty, buy a new car. Modern cars are extraordinary sophisticated and complex machines and incredibly reliable and affordable compared to the products of only twenty years ago. When we had a brand new Fiesta in 1978 it had a one year warranty and it literal fell to bits when it ran out so-we bought another in 79 and that fell to bits as well.

[TTFSam]

I have a 2003 VW Passat TDi estate Bought and continually serviced by Lookers VW in Darlington.

I have just been charged £690 (incl VAT) for unblocking my plenum chamber by Lookers VW garage in Darlington. I explained that I had had a very sudden influx of large amount of water to the drivers foot-well after driving through a minor flood. The service "engineer" said that the only thing to do was to completely remove the interior trim and water test the entire car - which would invlove 8 hours labour. Two days later the job was finished - admittedly the carpets had been dried and vacuumed, but the bill says the solution was "plenum chamber blocked, removed plug and clean out pollen filter housing". Lookers "only" charged for the 8hours labour rather than the two days it had taken them.

Having discovered this forum (and the fact the the plenum chamber has been the subject of a Passat recall and that the problem can be solved with a screw-driver) after the event, am I justified in challenging Lookers competence and demanding a substantial refund?

[Crasher]

It does not require a screwdriver but the removal of the battery using a socket set/spanner and takes an hour tops BUT removing the interior and drying it out does take time. Considering it is such a common problem they have made rather a meal of it. I can unblock the drains, fit a new housing base seal and wet vac the passenger side carpets reasonably dry (it only normally makes the left wet) by just lifting them up, in about two and a half hours.

[TTFSam]

Thanks Crasher

I take the point about the screwdriver - and having looked at other sites that give a photo guide to the job I appreciate it's not straight-forward.

I guess what I'm asking is:

Firstly, would any competent VW mechanic be aware of the plenum issue (given the recall history with this model) and check this before striping the entire interior and water-testing the entire car?

Secondly, should checking the plenum drainage be part of a standard service (as some forum contributors seem to think so)?

Cheers

[Crasher]

If someone is a mechanic on Audi, VW or Skoda (not Seat, they are only just introducing the platform unless it is designed out) then if they were unaware of the problem they should not be doing the job. Certainly on the A4, cleaning the plenum chamber drains is one item on the service sheet produced by VAG’s service system ELSA so if it has been dealer serviced they should have been cleaned at least once every two years. Unfortunately two year intervals are often too long, another reason I don’t like these stupid Longlife service intervals. Car manufacturers have tried to reduce service times too much to make their cars look more appetising to fleet users, unfortunately it backfires on later owners but they don not matter in the eyes of the marketing department, in fact we probably don’t exist as far as they are concerned.

[TTFSam]

Hi Crasher

Sorry to bother you again, but Lookers VW Garage are denying that there has ever been a recall issue on plenum chamber blockage. They are also denying that they have ever had a directive from VW to add checking of Plenum drainage to general service.

I cannot find (and believe you me I've been looking) details of the Passat recall - apart from American ones (which someone very kindly posted up the 2002 Passat recall letter for) . Has it to your knowledge ever specifically been subject to a recall in the UK?

AS far as the service goes I'm getting a fairly consistent message that it should be covered as you say at two yearly intervals - is there some sort of definitive VW list that I can confirm this against?

Just to add a bit of spice: In the week after my last service with Lookers (Nov) the brake warning light started coming on intermittently - I rang them and they say to ignore it - The brake warning light has come back on today, and having read all you have written on the connection between the plenum drainage problem and brakes, I'm now concerned about driving the car!!

Grateful for your wise words

[TTFSam]

Hi Crasher

I've now found details of the 2007 VW TSB 51B8 to check for blocked drain holes in the plenum chamber -which I understand corresponded to the US P9 following the US recall notice. I think I've got enough at the moment to go on - I'll let you know how I get on with them accepting a "goodwill" offer of 2 and half hours labour. However I still have that brake warning light flashing....

I'll keep you informed.

Cheers

Sam

[Crasher]

I think it was only a recall on Audi in the UK, which is preposterous as the two cars share the same design and parts. I can check next week if it is on the service sheet for VW but I think it is, we offer it anyway at the service and it is up to the customer to take the option if they want it.

[TTFSam]

Hi Crasher

Thanks - I'd be very grateful for any further info you can give after your check of the service sheet on Monday. I have not heard back from Lookers yet after putting my case to them via email - the ball is in their court for the moment.

I am concerned about that lit brake warning light - to be honest I haven't driven the car since it lit again (two days) and I started reading about freezing weather and flood related servo damage. Lookers advice after the last service "just to ignore it" sounds a little hollow now I've done what I should have done back when it first lit up and gone on-line.

I've tagged on some of the bits I've un-earthed - apologies to those I'm quoting, and apologies for posting so much - just thought even though you are being described as the "Yoda" of plenum flooding elsewhere on this forum you might not have seen some of this.

Cheers

Sam

Some bits I've found regarding "TSB 51B8 to check for blocked drain holes in the plenum chamber 2007"

Apologies again for this first one - from elsewhere on this site and I don't know how to quote properly

1.
snapdragon (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=1562)
VWAF Distinguished Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
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Re: Newbie stung by blocked plenum - was I ripped off?
I don't know whether you are aware, but this can cause brake failure, so I complained to VOSA in the hope that it would invoke a recall, and they said that they would not as VW had amended the service schedule to include cleaning and unblocking the plenum chamber. If yours had full VW service history then how is it so that you still had the problem?
__________________
Passat 2002 2.5 TDi
Last edited by snapdragon; 22-01-2009 at 12:02 PM.

2. From Telegraph’s Honest John: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/4029788/Honest-John-speed-camera-debate-and-VW-reliability-issues.html

Passat imperfect

I have owned my 2002 VW Passat TDi 100 for two years and 25,000 miles and it has been a very good economical car, helped by the VED being only £120. However, last week after a huge amount of rain, I reversed the car out of the drive and found that the foot brake was very hard and the brakes ineffective and making a squelching sound. I searched the Internet for similar cases and found the notes on your website, amongst others, describing the blocked plenum chamber drain hole problem. I inspected the car and sure enough there was a lake around the battery and brake servo. I also pulled out the dipstick and found grey sludge very high on the dipstick looking like water had got in the sump and mixed with the oil. It seems that VW is well aware of this problem and issued a dealer Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) in 2007 to check for blocked drain holes in the plenum chamber. Trouble is, this was not send to owners who have not used their franchised dealers for servicing (me included; one of a high percentage for cars this old I would think). I arranged for the car to be towed to a VW dealer for the recall work and to check for related damage to the brakes and engine. The upshot of this was that the dealer found water in the brake servo that caused water to be pumped into the engine sump. They recommended that the brake servo, pipework and tandem pump be replaced (cost £980). They thought the engine was undamaged, having carried out compression checks. They reported the case to VW which refused to cover any costs beyond unblocking the drain holes because the car has not been serviced by VW. What do you make of VW’s attitude? There may have been deaths caused by this problem due to brake failures. Hopefully you’ll print this, as other owners need to be warned of the possibility of failed brakes. I believe the problem also affects Audi A4 B6s and B7s and old model Skoda Superbs.

H.N., Chandlers Ford

Unless VOSA orders a safety recall, which experience has shown me it is unlikely to do for cars more than five years old, this will remain a dealer Technical Service Bulletin. "

3. Also from Honest John :-

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=523

What to Watch Out For
Also see Passat 1997 - 2001.

"In 2007 VAG issued a dealer TSB 51B8 to check for blocked drain holes in the plenum chamber. Trouble is, they do not send recall notice letters to owners who have not used their franchised dealers for servicing. The first signs are a flooded vent well with water slopping about and emulsified oil under the oil cap. Apparently this water can be drawn into the brake servo and causes corrosion to the servo housing and brake master cylinder that can result in reduced brake force or failure altogether. Replacement of perforated brake servo, pipework and tandem pump be replaced can cost £980."

4. Final One which was the last mail in a long thread starting with plenum chamber related flooding:-
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@718.kxI4aDg9eJO@.ee9b76f/1902#1902
Re: service action P9 [brayster99] by silverblue

Hi,

I have since contacted the MD of VW(UK) and the MD of the dealership. They are currently "investigating" the issue. VOSA (the UK vehicle and Operator Services Agency) say that the issue is not enough to warrant a recall although thay have informed me that a Service note went out to garages regarding this in September 2007, about a month after the USA. So much for my garage not being aware of it in December.

I am awaiting calls back from VW and the dealership to see how we progress this - I'll keep the thread updated.

Rod

[Crasher]

Can you PM me your reg number and email so I can send you the sheet?

[fyvie11]

hi have you checked to see that your brake lights are functioning correctly as my a4 had a whole load of lights come on after the servo was replaced (water ingress) on the a4 there is not an individual light for the brake pedal switch being faulty I was worried by the lights it was my abs etc but was just a faulty brake pedal switch. Changed the switch for a new (improved design) one £8 at audi and all was back to normal. If your brake lights work when you press the pedal and go off all is fine with switch not sure if vw are same but worth a check

[mrmikes]

I took my 2001 passat 1.9 TDI130 to the dealer ship for the plenum chamber recall and they replaced the brake servo under warantee.

[TTFSam]

I managed to get the dealer to knock his price for the plenum clearance needed after footwell flooding down from the original £700 to £150. This was largely due to the advice and support from Crasher and others on this forum (Thanks Crasher!). The dealer did not concede that my 2001 TDI was subject to recall, but they did concede that the plenum chamber was a problem and should be routinely checked at service and that the initial charge was excessive.

[billy g]

Hi crasher, could you tell me the part no for the plenum chamber drain valves you talk about as my local audi dealer cant get them for me and thinks they might not make them anymore due to my cars age, 1999 a4 1.8 20v non turbo engine code apt T reg, face lift model,i have oil fumes coming into car when heater on and have sorted that problem, broken breather pipe, my drain valve under servo is still there but one under battery is missing, any help gratefully received.

[Crasher]

Tricky little blighters to find, I think they are 8D0 819 419 A, about £2.50 each.

[Jonny Chee]

I just received a letter in the post from VW stating the problem saying that I should take my 51 reg'd Passat to the nearest dealer to get the chambers checked, free of charge.

This letter has come a year too late for my liking as last year (shortly after buying the car) I had to have my servo replaced as a result of this (cost £800).

My question is, should I be entitled to a refund as this is a known defect?

[Jonny Chee]

Sorry, just realised I posted in the AUDI section!