Court Hearing - Information required...

[motyourcar]

Good afternoon, I wonder if some of you would be able to help me.

I need some information regarding damage caused to the engine of a VW Golf TDi in regard to oil pump failure, damage to the turbo, and also what damage this could cause to the engine?

All help and advice fully appreciated.

[Crasher]

Can we have a little more background information such as car year and engine code plus a story about what has happened?

[motyourcar]

Can we have a little more background information such as car year and engine code plus a story about what has happened?


For sure, the vehicle age is 2000 (W) I do not have the engine code sorry.

The car came in for a service and timing belt change, this was conducted, 10 days later the customer complains that the belt was faulty/came loose and damaged the engine. We sent the belt away to be tested, we had a report back showing no inherent fault.

We rebuilt the engine, and started the engine, within three mins, the same thing happened and damaged a valve.

After further investigating we had noticed the oil pump was not working, this inturn has damaged the turbo.

If no oil was getting into the pump and then on to the turbo, what damage could this cause?

[Crasher]

That is a very depressing tale. What is the vehicles registration number?

[motyourcar]

Hope that helps, the chap has now put in a re-con for £3.5k and is looking to sue the garage, but the engine could have been rebuilt at a fraction of the cost.

I am just gathering information, and wondering if the oil pump was not recieving oil and not able to distibute oil, would this then cause the engine to seize, and what sort of damage should be expected?

[Crasher]

Hope what helps?

[motyourcar]

Anybody?

[Crasher]

I only got that number in the notification mail, not on the screen. It is a Golf 4 Y chassis (2000) with a 110PS VEP TDI engine, the reg document incorrectly states that the car has 115PS which is a PD TDI AJM engine. How did the oil pump fail, was it the chain, tensioner or sprocket bolt?

[Captain Answer]

Hm, well hang on a minute, it seems you are from the garage? In which case surely you should be consulting legal aid and using the expert knowledge that you already have in this area rather than consorting a motoring forum??

[buster]

We rebuilt the engine, and started the engine, within three mins, the same thing happened and damaged a valve.
?

You, a professional garge, rebuilt the engine but didn't check the oil pump was working

This is a wind up isn't it? ;)

In answer to your question, if you run an engine without oil feed it will score the bearings in the turbo making it an expensive paperwieght, wreck the big ends, main bearings, camshaft bearings, and a lot more. In others words, the huge lump of pig iron which used to be an engine, isn't one now.

Is there no oil pressure warning light on those things?

[Martin Burnard]

OR
is MOTYOURCAR actually somebody trying to find out what the garage might say in court?

If you get my drift.

[RickT]

OR
is MOTYOURCAR actually somebody trying to find out what the garage might say in court?

If you get my drift.


it sounds to me like the garage has not investigated the fault correctly or messed up while putting it back together.. therefore the garage would be at fault and liable..

The contract the customer had was to service the car and cam belt change. if the garage has failed to do this, or completed the job incorrect it on their head.

FACT.. Car was working ok before entering the garage... Car had "other" issues when leaving..

Anyway... The above is guess work, and as i don't know the full situation with in depth detail I'm unable to comment...

The above is a general opinion and is not directly related at the garage in question.

Rick

[Captain Answer]

OR
is MOTYOURCAR actually somebody trying to find out what the garage might say in court?

If you get my drift.

ER yeh, that'll be it with his username... oh wait

[Martin Burnard]

MOTYOURCAR has no details in thier profile.... so which side of the fence they are we do not know.

We all know that people can be subtle in the way they gain information.

Nothing wrong with that, it may even help people get a balanced view of a situation.

The questions though are a little unusual for a qualified mechanic to ask. (or at least I think they are).

AND as we are all aware there are at least 3 versions of the truth... one from each side and normaly one somewhere in the middle!

Now if the MOTYOURCAR is a mechanic at least they have the courage to ask questions, if on the other hand they are the injured party, good on them for trying to understand what may happen from the other side.

There that should explain my take on the situation.

[motyourcar]

This is a letter that the garage has sent to the court, hopefully from this you will be able to see a bit more clearly to give me your views, I am neither the garage nor the complainant, I have just been asked to gather some information, from people who may well have more experiance with VW's and the workings of the oil pump and damage that could be caused. All help is appreciated.


Counter Claim against Mr X


My name is Mr xxxxxxx, I am the proprietor of xxxxxxx, unfortunately, I have to put into the court this statement of events due to a claim made against my company.

On or around the 10th July 2007 Mr X contacted our garage to book his car in for a service and timing belt change. We proceeded to order the parts for the service and timing belt on the 10th July from XXXXXX. The car arrived on the 12th July and we proceeded with the service and timing belt change, the customer was satisfied with the work we did and left the premises content.

On the 18th of July we were contacted by an irate Mr X stating that his car had broken down and that his engine had seized, I asked Mr X where the car was and he stated that it was at his house. I organised with Mr X to pick the car up from his house, but stated I could not proceed with the repairs for at least five days as we had pre-booked work already scheduled. Mr X was happy for us to carry out the repairs to his car. Mr X stated that the timing belt had came loose, which caused a valve to strike the top of a piston which caused damage to the engine.

Mr X asked if we had a courtesy car that he could use in the meantime. I explained to Mr X that we do not have courtesy car, however I did have a car that he could use. We do not have courtesy cars, but I felt as it was a manufacturers fault with a timing belt I would do all I can to help Mr X be mobile, but he would have to ensure that he has this car covered on his own Motor Policy as the company policy does not cover usage for customers. Mr X agreed he would cover this on his Insurance.

I took the car away and explained again that it would take sometime to rebuild his engine, of which he understood. As I thought this may have been a faulty timing belt I sent this back to the manufacturers to be tested whilst my mechanics and I rebuilt the engine. After some 14 days from the day of me picking the car up from Mr X we managed to rebuild the engine, we started the engine to check all was ok, and the engine seized within 3 minutes of running.

I was baffled as surly this could not have been another fault with a timing belt. I looked into this further to see what else was causing the problem, it was then that we found that the oil pump had broken and was not pumping oil. I telephoned Mr X and explained the very same thing has happened since we rebuilt the engine. Mr X was none to pleased, I explained to Mr X that it would seem that the oil pump was not working and it would seem that this has caused his engine seize, it was unclear at this stage if this was the reason for the first engine seizure.

Mr X arrived at the garage with his father, I explained to Mr X and his father that the oil pump is not working, and that this is the reason why the engine had seized a second time. I offered Mr X and his father to view the faulty pump, but they both declined as they agreed for me to rebuild the engine for the second time, and fit a new oil pump. As Mr X had no use for the oil pump, I disposed of the oil pump.

Mr X had asked if it was possible for me to put him under the garage Insurance whilst this work was being conducted, at first I refused as I thought it was a bit cheeky to ask me to do this, but I telephoned my Insurance Company, and the excess to add Mr X was very expensive indeed. I told Mr X that I could not add him to my Insurance Policy as the excess was a major increase to the policy. Mr X stated that for him to continue to pay the excess on his Insurance for the car, well, he just could not afford to do this. I still offered Mr X the use of the vehicle as long as he was prepared to pay the Insurance.
Mr X seemed to be annoyed by this and left.

We started to rebuild the engine for the second time when Mr X arrived and stated he wanted to take the car away as he was not happy with the work we carried out. I explained to Mr X that we have already started the rebuild, but he wanted to take the car away. If as first thought, this could be a manufacturer’s problem with the timing belt, I would have managed to get the cost of the work from the supplier of the belt, and therefore allowed Mr X to take the vehicle away without paying for the work already done.

On the 29th August 2007, I received a letter from X Ltd, which was the result of the test carried out on the tensioner and timing belt, it has stated “that after preliminary examination of the tensioner and belt indicates no inherent defect”. As far as I am concerned from the result of the test, it is now proof that that the reason why Mr X’s vehicle has seized was not down to a faulty timing belt, but down to the oil pumps failure.

I have received two letters from Mr X, one dated the 10th September 2007, in this letter which I have forward to you a copy, he claims that we had used the wrong oil, and disregarded the oil pump without his consent, and this was an important piece of information in regard to the engine failure.

Firstly I refute the allegation made that we had used the wrong oil, as it is clear that we had in fact used the correct oil, as it is listed with other items on the delivery notice for Mr X’s service. I also refute the claim that I disregarded the oil pump. As I have stated, I offered Mr X and his father to examine the oil pump, and they refused. Further into Mr X’s letter he claims that the turbo charger was ruined due to the wrong oil being used.

I have explained to Mr X that the oil that we used was the correct oil, I have also explained to Mr X that if the oil pump was faulty then it would not be able to feed the turbo with oil, and this would then cause damage.

I wrote back to Mr X on the 17th September 2007 and outlined my concerns of his claim, of which a copy of the letter is enclosed for your perusal.

I received a second letter from Mr X on the 3rd October 2007, again a copy of the letter I have enclosed. As I am a member of XXXX Ltd, I contacted my local Consultant Mr X, I asked Mr X if he could take a look at the this situation and to give me an honest opinion of where my obligations to this claim lie.

Mr X looked over all the paperwork that I have submitted to you, and his opinion being that as we have kept all the invoices for the work carried out, it clearly states that the allegations of wrong oil used was certainly not the wrong oil ordered, he also states that due to the letter confirming no inherent fault with the timing belt, and our willingness to accommodate Mr X then we should pursue Mr X for the repairs to date.

Mr X wrote a letter on our behalf to Mr X, (of which I have submitted a copy to you,) and as of today’s date have not received a reply from Mr X.

My company has done everything possible to accommodate Mr X, and although this is an unfortunate set of circumstances, I feel that Mr X is really unsure of his claim, as it states on the claim form, he is claiming the timing belt failed, and in his letters, he is stating that we used the wrong oil and this has caused damage to the turbo? I have sent you evidence to prove there was no fault with the timing belt, I have sent you a copy of the invoice which outlines all parts needed for Mr X’s service on his vehicle, which clearly states Volkswagen PD Oil Fixed Service Interval Oil.

Faults can happen at anytime, and we do not check the oil pump whilst conducting a service, this is not a necessity, and is not listed under the Trading Standards Good Practice.

I would ask of you to consider the evidence from the manufacturers, and see your way to allowing my counter claim for work already done to Mr X’s vehicle as a sum off: £807.00

[chrisvrscrx]

The thing I don't understand is when the engine was stripped down there wouldn't have been cambelt damage so maybe the garage should of investigated further.
Surely if the cambelt had failed there would of been clear evidence.
As if it had siezed too.

[motyourcar]

The thing I don't understand is when the engine was stripped down there wouldn't have been cambelt damage so maybe the garage should of investigated further.
Surely if the cambelt had failed there would of been clear evidence.
As if it had siezed too.

Chris this is what I think I am saying or the garage was saying... when they sent the belt/tensioner away there was no inherent fault with the equipment, the damage the garage is saying is caused by the oil pump not receiving oil and inturn not feeding the turbo if im correct?

[onzarob]

I've read the document 10 times and i can't get this straight. After the service the cambelt failed 10 days later. Is that the cambelt that was tested? was it found to be faulty?

After the rebuild and the cambelt failed, was that one was tested?

If the second belt is the one identified as not faulty then other causes were then investigated..eg the oil pump?

[motyourcar]

Just to clarify:


The Car came in for service and timing belt change

Eight days later the customer complained the timing belt came loose and seized the engine.

The garage sent the timing kit away to manufactures to be tested, result of test came back with no inherent fault.

Garage repaired engine and rebuilt as two valves were buggered.

After rebuild they started the engine and after three mins of running another valve had gone and engine seized.

After examination it was found the oil pump was not working, it is assumed that the oil pump was not working at the time of the original seizure.

As the customer is suing the garage for faulty timing belt and wrong oil used during the service, I think the garage is in the clear.


But what i need to know is the damage caused by no oil entering the pump and then the turbo, and secondly, could this damage be explained by no oil entering the pump
(that is in reference to another poster)



Once again appreciate all help.

[buster]

Just to clarify:

The Car came in for service and timing belt change
Eight days later the customer complained the timing belt came loose and seized the engine.
The garage sent the timing kit away to manufactures to be tested, result of test came back with no inherent fault.
Garage repaired engine and rebuilt as two valves were buggered.
After rebuild they started the engine and after three mins of running another valve had gone and engine seized.
After examination it was found the oil pump was not working, it is assumed that the oil pump was not working at the time of the original seizure.
As the customer is suing the garage for faulty timing belt and wrong oil used during the service, I think the garage is in the clear.
But what i need to know is the damage caused by no oil entering the pump and then the turbo, and secondly, could this damage be explained by no oil entering the pump
(that is in reference to another poster)



Once again appreciate all help.

As soon as the pump failed, the oil light would have come on and probably (Check to see what happens with that make and model) other warning lights and beepers should have alerted to the driver to stop immediately.

How many miles did the vehicle cover between the service and the seizure?

With modern oils, it could have managed quite a distance in short runs with no oil circulating.

[motyourcar]

The Vehicle arrived with all warning lights on, on the second re-build, no lights were on when they restarted the engine, but within three minutes, the engine startd thumping and then stooled! (if that's the correct spelling) and thats when it was found that the oil pump was broken.

[onzarob]

Stalled;)

if no oil going through the pump then any number of components are at risk of seizing.

I keep thinking the cam seized causing the piston to hit valve and bend it and the belt to snap.

Just a principle thing, there are 2 types of lubrication that happen in an engine, pressure fed oil from the oil pump and splash oiling from the sump.

No oil pressure from a failed or unprimed pump would run the cam bearings, crankshaft bearings and turbo bearing dry eventually causing terminal wear rates.

Looks like the Cam and turbo gave way first.

That how I see it, Crasher tell me I'm wrong/right please:D

[Crasher]

What make of timing belt was fitted?

Were the three relay rollers and water pump replaced?

Where did the belt or kit come from?

What was the nature of damage to the belt and do you have any pictures?

Was the crankshaft pulley centre bolt removed during the work?

Did the engine exhibit any signs of seizure before the rebuild?

What make of PD oil was used? It is stated at the end of the letter that PD specification oil was used in this engine. In fact this is theoretically the wrong oil for this engine as it is an AHF code 110PS VEP TDI not a PD TDI. However PD oil is actually superior to normal oil and would not cause oil pump failure. I suspect this is where the accusation of using the wrong oil is coming from. Only engine oil conforming to VW standard 505 00 or 505 01 should be used in this engine so for example if VAG Quantum PD oil was used, this is perfectly correct.

Before the engine seized on either occasion, was the oil pressure warning light on?

When it seized the second time, did the timing belt fail again?

In what way is the oil pump “broken”, do you have pictures? Personally I have seen very few examples of oil pump failure on these engines.

The text at the end of paragraph 6 and the middle of paragraph 7 infers and then states the engine seized the first time, this is shooting himself in the foot if this is handed in to the court as he is stating quite plainly that he missed something.

As is stated, a loss of oil pressure would damage the turbo but does he have proof the turbo was damaged.

Whatever happens I can tell you one thing, in my experience the case will be found against the repairing garage as the small claims system is heavily biased towards the consumer. A lot of money could be spent fighting this claim; it may be easier to both come to an agreement to share the losses.

I also think that this letter should be re-written with some legal help, it is contradictory and some aspects do not make sense such as “disregarded” the oil pump when I assume “disposed of” is what is really meant.

By disposing of the oil pump, the garage has made their case extremely difficult to prove.

[buster]

I also think that this letter should be re-written with some legal help, it is contradictory and some aspects do not make sense such as “disregarded” the oil pump when I assume “disposed of” is what is really meant.


I think he means 'discarded.'

I do think that the customer is going to have to prove that the garage did something to cause the seizure. Just saying that the belt broke is not going to sway the court, unless an expert witness is brought in.

I am going to court soon with a garage and hope what you say about courts being biased in my favour is true, but I really don't think they are.

I really don't think that putting the wrong oil into the car would cause the engine to seize like that and the garage has a report that the belt did not fail.

The customer is going to have to put up some convincing proof to get judgement on this one.

[onzarob]

I personally feel that the reason the belt snapped is important but not proven. I don't know how the oil pump is driven on these engines, but to me the belt breaking was blamed for the bent valve etc, but the belt snapping was a consequence of oil pump running dry and things becoming stiff, which unfortunately they found out after the rebuild (more replacement of broken parts I suspect) rebuild makes you feel the whole engine was examined and refurbished

Even the wrong oil wouldn't kill the car in a week.

I now see why garages buy and replace the whole engine as it save this type of complaint:aargh4::(

[Crasher]

I now see why garages buy and replace the whole engine as it save this type of complaint


That is one reason, the other is rebuilding an engine is horribly time consuming especially when as regards cleaning everything and if something goes wrong, there is a warranty. That is why I fit genuine VAG engines, even to my own car.

As for the oil pump on that engine, it is driven off the end of the crank by a chain and all inside the sump. I would love to known in what way the pump failed, I have never seen one go on one of those. The whole story is bizarre and I really think the garage to rewrite that letter, he will surely lose on that, any decent lawyer would pull him to bits on those inconsistencies.

Whenever I do any job that is slightly odd, I keep all the bits for quite a time before “discarding” them just in case.

[buster]

That is one reason, the other is rebuilding an engine is horribly time consuming especially when as regards cleaning everything and if something goes wrong, there is a warranty. That is why I fit genuine VAG engines, even to my own car.

As for the oil pump on that engine, it is driven off the end of the crank by a chain and all inside the sump. I would love to known in what way the pump failed, I have never seen one go on one of those. The whole story is bizarre and I really think the garage to rewrite that letter, he will surely lose on that, any decent lawyer would pull him to bits on those inconsistencies.

Whenever I do any job that is slightly odd, I keep all the bits for quite a time before “discarding” them just in case.

The garage needs to push the fact that the oil light would have come on and alerted the driver.

Motyourcar, you need some legal help as crasher has stated.

You do not have to ask the court to allow a counter claim, just issue one if you feel you should.

Putting the correct type of oil on the invoice does NOT prove that you used the correct oil. You can state that it was the correct type and push the fact that even if it was the wrong grade, which is denied, the wrong grade would NOT have caused a failure of this magnitude.

When is the case being heard?

[onzarob]

The whole story is bizarre and I really think the garage to rewrite that letter, he will surely lose on that, any decent lawyer would pull him to bits on those inconsistencies..

I read that letter allot and its poor :(



Whenever I do any job that is slightly odd, I keep all the bits for quite a time before “discarding” them just in case.

Throwing parts is the worst possible thing to do, I used to do workshop repairs to computers etc (BBC Micros etc) and we alway bagged the old components and return ithem with the unit. That way there was a reference to parts changed.

[Captain Answer]

I'll stick a quid on MOTYOURCAR being the legal help of one of the assistants there of for one of the parties, quite why they are consorting our advice I've no idea as it'd be no use in court or in any legal sense "well *insertforumname* of VWAUDIFORUMDOTCODOTCOM says his dads bigger than your dad!"

[onzarob]

I'll stick a quid on MOTYOURCAR being the legal help of one of the assistants there of for one of the parties, quite why they are consorting our advice I've no idea as it'd be no use in court or in any legal sense "well *insertforumname* of VWAUDIFORUMDOTCODOTCOM says his dads bigger than your dad!"

:biglaugh:

[Crasher]

I will have you know that what I say is important, my cat told me so!

[buster]

I will have you know that what I say is important, may cat told me so!

Me too, although I don't actually have a cat, well I have but it only filters out toxins in my exhaust and doesn't know much about legal stuff, but I have been to court once to defend mysaelf against a speeding fine.

Oh and I'm going to court about a warranty issue too. :D

[Sam]

I'll stick a quid on MOTYOURCAR being the legal help of one of the assistants there of for one of the parties, quite why they are consorting our advice I've no idea as it'd be no use in court or in any legal sense "well *insertforumname* of VWAUDIFORUMDOTCODOTCOM says his dads bigger than your dad!"

:biglaugh:

Just "say what you see"

[installer]

I have a cat.....her name is "Sassy".... and my t4 transporter is broke..... is it the cats fault then or what.?


Oh and shes pregnant too...does that mean more things are gonna break????

[installer]

But seriously...
I think what the garage are saying here is that the car came in for a service and cambelt change, the garage did this with the reccomended replacement parts.... the car I think was running fine at this point.... The garage did what they were asked to do....

10 days later the engine seizes and the customer tells the garage its due to a faulty cambelt

the garage believe this to be the case and proceed to repair (rebuild) the engine at the same time sending the belt that they installed incl tensioner back to the manufacturer for testing so that if it were found to be faulty the garage could claim for the repairs from the belt manufacturer avoiding any additional cost to the customer...

The garage rebuilt the engine (possibly only the head me thinks) and restarted the engine, whilst in the garage the engine failed again and after further investigation the oil pump was found to be knackered.....


What i think the garage are trying to say is that the reason for the engine to seize the first time was as a result of the oil pump failing (10 days after cambelt replacement) and in no way connected to the work they did for the customer... kind of **** happens theory....therefore the customer owes them for the rebuild of the engine,

in my opinion the customer would be liable for the first rebuild but not the second as the garage should have checked oil pressure after a rebuild anyhow....


Just my thoughts...

[pete99]

anyone any idea how this was concluded ?.