Rear brake carrier bolts broken please help!!

[layerz]

Right I need to change my rear discs for the mot, and that runs out this week.

The caliper comes off no problem, but it is the 8mm allen bolts on the carier that are stuck.
Some clever dealership has slipped em in the past and not replaced them:confused:, my 8mm allen key is new so no scores/wear and it is slipping.
It is in such an akward place I am not sure how to get them out, one idea is to file em down on the outside to get a 15mm / 1/2" drive onto it or a 15mm spanner, but leverage in such a spot is still problamatic.

I really need some input / ideas of how to get these bolts off so I can remove the disc.:1zhelp::1zhelp:
Oh and the disc is gona need beating with a hammer to get it off otherwise i'd try slipping it out, but not keen on the idea to loosen it incase with it loose it still wont come off.

[paulp]

i have used irwin boltgrip in the past(see ebay)or maybe try welding a nut to allen head ,hammer and chisel if all else fails:D

[layerz]

Hammer and chisel? Is that to face the sides or remove the head?

[paulp]

if you can form a groove in the head of the bolt with the chisel it has to turn out.not to sharp a chisel or you will just keepcutting bits from bolt.:biglaugh:

[layerz]

Sorry it has been a long afternoon, so you are saying chisen it to form a head for a 15mm driver?

(16mm slips and 15mm atm is too small)

[paulp]

no,you say its allen head bolts which are round on the outside .hit the chisel to form a groove/slot in roundhead.then angle chisel to turn bolt anti clockwise to remove.

[layerz]

Ahh no the 8mm allen key goes into the bolt,

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/wheel139.shtml

The bolt is in that guide you should be able to see what I mean.

[passat>sport]

I would be tapping the bolt with a lump hammer and blunt chisel just to loosen it, then hammer the next size up allen key into the hole to loosen the rest (thats if you have rounded the bolt) followed by new bolts of course. Can you not get a pair of small stilsons in there. (plumbers grips)

Still at it then :biglaugh:

[layerz]

Oh yea lol, just to be clear the last owner rounded them I am paying for his **** up.

The problem is a 10mm allen key is way too big, but a 8mm just slips ideally I could use a 9mm (does such a size allen key exist?)

I am kinda at the point of no return with the car I can not beleive so many things have not been changed that cost pennies, I mean new bolts and new clips are cheap! Why oh why would you not replace them.

[passat>sport]

I could use a 9mm (does such a size allen key exist?)

You could try an imperial allen key rather than metric.

Example: half inch is equivalent to 13mm and slightly smaller. Not sure what the equivalent for 9mm is, but will be slightly smaller and might bang in a bit better.

Stilsons would do the job if you could get them round the bolt head. (I'm not sure without looking)

[rhencullen1989]

21/64 allen key is 8.35mm if you can get hold of one! if you can get to the heads with a hacksaw i think i would just hack them off, remove carrier and use molegrips on the protruding remains of the bolt. Impact drivers are also very good, try doing the bolt UP first, then undo it, they some times crack off easier by trying to tighten them as the stress involved in tightening a bolt will remain in that direction! as undoing it first could just twist it slightly (sounds good anyway) Heat and penetrating fluid, chisel and good hammer, drill head off, try grinding down a bigger allen key to suit? all suggestions that may (or may not) help.

[kurtis]

In cases like this in the past I've hammered in a suitably sized Torx Bit. The spiky shape helps dig in, and they're usually just a little bigger than an equivalent hex drive.

For an 8mm try something like a Torx 50 or 55. Halfords have them as sockets.

Get it lined up and tap it in at first to help it grip. then smack hell out of it with a lumper. Apply a suitable ratchet and job done.

It may be a good idea to make sure it's not seized and will undo easily, by soaking in WD overnight and then use some burning gear on it to help break any seizures before trying to turn it.

Good luck.

[layerz]

Right I got a hammer and cold chisel and gona have a go tomorrow night and sat morning if need be!

Believe it or not a t50 is to small, and a t55 is way to big!

Just checking, I have been told to hit it with the hammer and chisel kinda at an angle is that right?, this is a pain in the *** as I may have to do this with all 4 bolts.

[kurtis]

Yeah the chisel can work, but it can be tricky to do. If it fails, try drilling the hex to 8.5 or 9mm to get the T55 in.

[layerz]

The problem is there is not space to get a drill in I think.....

[STEWY L]

The problem is there is not space to get a drill in I think.....
i don't know the car myself, but is their not some hex headed bolts
lower down that hold the anchor to the stub? if you removed those
would the pads not just come out when you lifted it all clear of the
disc?

[layerz]

Yeah the chisel can work, but it can be tricky to do. If it fails, try drilling the hex to 8.5 or 9mm to get the T55 in.


i don't know the car myself, but is their not some hex headed bolts
lower down that hold the anchor to the stub? if you removed those
would the pads not just come out when you lifted it all clear of the
disc?

Nope the caliper I can get off in minutes, it is the carrier bolts that are behind the disc/hub

[paulp]

if the disc is to be scraped,why not cut a piece out of it so you can get it past carrier,it might give you more space to work on carrier bolts

[chrisvrscrx]

I might be wrong but im sure you can get the disc out without removing those bolts

http://www.passatworld.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=179518

Have a look at this thread.

[layerz]

Chris it is a dead link I am afraid, and I think they can but the disc is suck.

[chrisvrscrx]

Go to the 'How to' guides and there is a link there.

[layerz]

OK just been at it for an hour and a half with a chisel and no joy, not moved a fraction, I am getting ****** off and frustrated now.
Looking at the bolt from under the car, I can see it is well and truly stuffed, it looks like there are odd grooves it in, almost like a single line of a thread I think it has been machine off in the past.

I am fast running out of ideas, and beleive it or not none of my local shops stock stilsons.....

[Withnail]

Would be interested to know what the ultimate outcome was..? Have same problem on n/s/top bolt of '96 A4 pad carrier. Fortunately it's not urgent on mine and I've got some scrapyard replacements off a Passat ready for when I can get the old bolt gone. Can't quite get a small Stillson on there straight enough to apply the necessary leverage. (and the wheelarch hinders getting extra leverage with tubes over the handle)Have had a go at it before, knocking the bolthead sideways from all angles with a punch to break the corrosion, followed by penetrating oil and a sharp-jawed footprint wrench. I've tried a 4/12" angle grinder in position and it would be easy enough to cut the head off, but It looks like I'm then gonna have to slice a chunk out of the brake disc in order to move the carrier half an inch further into the wheelarch to slip it off the length of stud which remains. I would get a set of the Irwin bolt extractor sockets to try on there, but I've slightly ovalised the head with the stilson, so the angle grinder remains favourite. Haven't tried access for migging anything on there and am a bit wary of damaging the ECU in the process. Anyone succeeded with this one?

[micheal balbrig]

Oh yea lol, just to be clear the last owner rounded them I am paying for his **** up.

The problem is a 10mm allen key is way too big, but a 8mm just slips ideally I could use a 9mm (does such a size allen key exist?)

I am kinda at the point of no return with the car I can not beleive so many things have not been changed that cost pennies, I mean new bolts and new clips are cheap! Why oh why would you not replace them.

You mention allen key. did you try an allen socket
you have the benefit of giving it a smack while trying to loosen
at same time. (impact action) If you locate an allen socket try scraping out
where 8mm end goes to try to get xtra grip
I think allen sockets are better at this job as they are less likely to cause damage. Maybe you could insert an old feeler blade
into recess and hammer socket in after it

[spartacus 68]

In these sort of situations - I've even used a splined or star-bit drive socket. Secret is to hammer in first. Once it's nicely bedded in, then and only then do you attempt to turn anti-clockwise. You could also try the 8mm brake tool and wrap a little sandpaper around it (course side out).

I'd also recommend adding a smear of copper-ease to the threads of the new bolts and then tighten.

Still not sure why Audi in their wisdom thought allen-key bolts were the best option.:zx11:

[31satara]

I had to replace the rear discs on my '98 A4 Tdi. Couldn't shift these two 8mm bolts and didn't have any 'heavy duty' kit. In the end I removed the old disc by sawing two 'v' sections out of it so it could come off past the caliper carrier.
Can't remember 'exactly' how, but it was just possible to fit the new discs without removing the carrier. The secret was not to fit the bearing and seal to the disc (just 'loose' on the stub axle I think) which allowed the disc to go in at the required angle, then carefully straightening up and pushing home seated the bearing and seal. I remember thinking there would be only one chance to get it right as once on with bearing in place the new disc would not come off without sawing!! I'd greased everything up and made sure it would all fit before I tried it. I then did the other in the same way.
Hope this might be of help to someone.

[rescue1]

hello dos that irwin tool that everyone raves on about actually work i have not actually used it but i have the same problem stuck bolts allen key bolts in the rear caliper
if these tools do work which size socket do i use as it comes in various sizes & they are not cheap very expensive needless to say thanks ....

[Doctle Odd]

Sealey 11 Piece 3 8" Metric Bolt Extractor SET AK7281 | eBay (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Sealey-11-Piece-3-8-Metric-Bolt-Extractor-Set-AK7281-/390038454944?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item5ad01a82a0) I believe they do a 1/2" drive one as well

[rescue1]

hello do these actually work tho i have been told so but not yet tried myself the allenkey bolt is 8mm so wot would be the correct size to use bearing in mind the outer circumfrence off the bolt is round irwin do lots off sockets to do with this type off situation but wot size do i go for & will it work best to ask before spending out loads on expensive tools ?

[belleekbeetle]

hello dos that irwin tool that everyone raves on about actually work i have not actually used it but i have the same problem stuck bolts allen key bolts in the rear caliper
if these tools do work which size socket do i use as it comes in various sizes & they are not cheap very expensive needless to say thanks ....

Yes - the Irwin extractor is great - i had the same problem just a couple of months ago and tried everything else that was suggested including heat and extra long breaker bars and after spending many hours at it the Irwin Extractors had them out in 5 minutes!

I would just give the outside of the allen bolt a quick rub with an angle grinder to give the Extractor something to "grab" onto#

Good luck

[Doctle Odd]

If you want ultra cheap cut the heads off flush to the bracket with a hacksaw blade with a handle. The stud will then unscrew. The bolt extractors are basically let hand thread dies with a slight taper. They usually come in sets and there are cheaper ones than Sealey but I'd avoid them. You put the extractor on the bolt and turn anti-clockwise. As you turn if moves down the bolt but as it's tapering the tool gets tighter. It's that or maybe someone would loan/hire you a set

[Doctle Odd]

I bought Sealey because I know the brand but Irwin ones seem cheap enough IRWIN HANSON BOLT / STUD EXTRACTORS,NEW TOOLS,10pc,METRIC+A/F | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IRWIN-HANSON-BOLT-STUD-EXTRACTORS-NEW-TOOLS-10pc-METRIC-A-F-/380748306425?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item58a65e17f9)

[mjhamilton]

Irvin ones are also very good - I have used them - they are about the same price as the cheaper price set comes with half the ones that you get with the Sealey kit

[Doctle Odd]

I've used mine once in 3 years, worked OK. It's not a tool kit most people would get real value for money from

[mjhamilton]

a lifesaver when you need it but you will probably only need saving once in your life ;)

[Bigzed]

Irwin ones work well, I had to use them on my rear carrier bolts on my A4Q when I replacd all my discs,
If you have a impact driver, stick the irwin bolt extractor on that and give it a tap. Hey presto tool locked onto bolt good and proper. Then undo with a spanner. works everytime.
Needless to say a good soaking in penetrating fluid the night before is a good idea for really rusty ones.
Well worth the money at twice the price.

So much time & knuckles saved and a lot less swearing involved.

[rescue1]

hello mate thanks for the information tho wot size irwin bolt / socket/remover did you use in the irwin socket set the original allen hex key size is 8mm
thats the internal fitting the outer diametre is slightly bigger if you can remember which size irwin socket you used also did it slip off at point ?
wot did you use to replace the carrier bolts was it the same ones or did you get normal steel bolts ? if so wot size & length in mm please thanks joetow .

[Bigzed]

Hi,
This is the Irwin set which will fit these cap head hex bolt.
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/5-piece-bolt-grip-set.
Once you have used these for this job, you will definately want to get the rest of the set. Cos they work.
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/5-piece-bolt-grip-set-expansion-set
You can use an impact driver or just tap the extractor a few times with a hammer as you turn the extractor its grips on the head of the bolt tighter as you turn.
I would suggest you use a spanner, rather than the silly little drive for a ratchet. That way you can tap it with a hammer whilst applying torque .

The carrier bolts you can get from the main :puke:pihsrelaets( in reverse), Dont recall how much they were, they cant have been extortionate or I'd remember.

[Nigella]

STILLSONS!!!

I had the same on my right rear... tried everything but couldnt shift them. One of the guys off the farm said he could shift them and he did with very little effort. Once the stillsons jaws had made the first bite into the round head of the allen bolt, the thread soon gave up and the bolt withdrew.

If I hadn't seen it I would have thought it impossible. I went out the very next day and bought a set for my tool box... you never know when they will come in handy....

[rescue1]

hi mate im very surprised stillsons worked i did try to use a big pair off mole grips but it was useless just made the head off the bolt worse wot size stillson was it ?
did he have to use a steel tube slipped over the stillson for extra leverage did you replace the old bolts for new or use the same ones that came out ? if so wot size bolts
& length please mate thanks pal.

[Doctle Odd]

Old school technology!
STILLSONS!!!

I had the same on my right rear... tried everything but couldnt shift them. One of the guys off the farm said he could shift them and he did with very little effort. Once the stillsons jaws had made the first bite into the round head of the allen bolt, the thread soon gave up and the bolt withdrew.

If I hadn't seen it I would have thought it impossible. I went out the very next day and bought a set for my tool box... you never know when they will come in handy....

[Nigella]

Moleies wont give you the same purchase as Stillsons. The Stillsons were about 14inch in length and the jaws were about 1.5 - 2in across. As you place leverage on the shaft, the jaws tighten and the more you increase the pressure you push the jaws together more and more and eventually, they overcome the stuck threads and away they go.

I cant remember the bolt size; something like M10 1.5 I think... TPS Stock them and they are about a pound a go, new. If you struggle, I am going to order some myself in the next few days and I can chuck a couple in the post for you if you wish??


Mole grips only grip as much as the tiny jaws allow you to squeeze them together, stillsons tighten more and more the more leverage you put on.

[rescue1]

hi mate i did think about using a stillson but the more i thought about it seemed pointless but in theory i think you mite be right i suppose its no diffrent to them irwin bolt extractor sockets which is very expensive i will give it a go with a pair off stillsons my only concern is there is not alot off working room under the car i was actually thinking about calling a mobile welder to weld on some nuts but think i will try the stillson after all its only a stubborn bolt which in theory was screwed into place so should unscrew well hopefully iv yet to take the brake pipe off too as i blew the rubber hose whilst trying to heat it up with a blow torch will keep you posted thanks pal .

[Nigella]

We undid mine with the car on the ground, all four wheels and without the luxury of a pit either. I did give the bolts a spray with a WD40 product, NOT the usual one but a specialised bolt and nut release spray made by the WD40 company. Was the first time I had used this and was surprised at how good it was.

Will try and get a pikkie of the stillsons so you can see exactly the shape of the heads we are talking about.

Do you want me to order you four new bolts when I order mine?


If you are going to call a welder, find some decent long reach allen keys and get him to weld these in, they will be much better than welding a nut head onto the bolt. I did this some years ago doing the exact same job. The allen key did bend a fair way until it popped and the thread released but it was the first time these had been done and the bolts had been in for six years!.

Once they release you can cut the bolt off and do all four that way.

[Nigella]

Did it work???

[Col]

Another one here who swears by the urwin bolt grip sockets.

As well as the brakes carrier bracket bolts, next time you do your cambelt, they will get you out of trouble will the allen headed outer crank pulley bolts!

[bobfish45]

I have recently done this job,and believe me there is NO EASY WAY! Undo the bottom damper bolt and cable tie the strut out of the way, this will give you more room,mine is a quattro so there was still little room. Remove the disc,and the crapshield, and the actual caliper, so all you have is the carrier bolted to the hub. You only have to get the top bolt out, then you can hit the carrier back and forth whilst spraying the bolt with duck oil.
So, you now have a choice of welding a nut to the bolt, it worked for me on one side, but on the other side the weld kept ripping off, you cant get the weld penetration on the bolt. On the other side,I ground off the carrier,as I was fitting different ones.
If you want my advice, it would be to get a carrier from a breaker,send me your address, and you can have the carrier that I have spare for the price of the postage, grind the buggers off, and use plenty of grease on the threads of the new bolts. Also, find some plastic caps, fill them with grease and put them over the heads of the new bolts. May the force be with you. Rod.

[green A8]

Has anybody tried this so called 'magic' freeze release type spray? I know nothing about it at all, except my tame mechanic swears by it. He claims that since using it he's never had a seized nut or bolt that it can't release. I think the stuff he uses is made by Locktite

[micheal balbrig]

Yes I have used it and found it quite good. It still requires time, patience and perseverance to free the seized items.
The idea is that the bolt freezes and contracts enough for hair line fractures to come in rust scale,then the lube can enter and free the seized item.
The product may have to be used a number of times for success.

Regards
Michael

[green A8]

Thanks for that reply Micheal,:beerchug: I might have to invest in a can or two of this stuff, The theory certainly sounds right, and as stated above , my mechanic claims that he's never had a seized nut or bolt defeat it. I'd rather wait a while and use a little product, than end up doing damage, either to the car or to my knuckles!

[bobfish45]

Did you get this done yet?