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View Full Version : AAT/AEL New crank or re-grind???



philbarber
08-01-2008, 04:30 PM
Hi folks,
I have just completed a rebuild of my AAT 5 cylinder TDi and I'm not happy with the big end tolerances.

Audi say you cannot re-grind - buy a new crank from us (loads a money). Engine re manufacturers say thats twoddle. but my reground crank dosen't sound as refined as a new AAT should.

I'm sure that we have made a mistake regrinding to figures listed for this engine used in other vehicles. I'm beginning to think that the AAT and AEL have finer running clearance on the big ends. Audi issue no figures and don't respond when asked.

does anybody know how fine the running clearance should be on these cranks?

Phil

kenney
08-01-2008, 08:04 PM
Hi There are 3 undersizes quoted for the AAT bearings,which means the crank can be regrinded.Using Plastigage, wear limit should not exceed 0.08mm.

Crasher
08-01-2008, 08:27 PM
Undersize bearings aren’t available from VAG but that isn't a problem, they are easily available from Glyco. Personally I don’t like grinding any VAG crank over 0.25-mm undersize. When you rebuilt it, did you fit new pistons?

philbarber
10-01-2008, 05:33 PM
Thankyou,
I didn't replace the pistons as the bores were within tolerance in fact had only done 100k. I did have new small ends fitted.

My new big ends were specified for the 2ltr, four cylinder direct injection VAG engine and tested OK for tolerance. My engine is now 150 miles old and I can tell the difference between the original Sputter bearings (before damage) and the new std ones. The Sputters are much the same at tick over but quieter under pressure. I know the top to bottom tolerance is smaller because they are thicker at the top. It makes a difference.

I agree with your view of not grinding VAG cranks more than .25 US. These 5 cylinder cranks have a resonance at 1600rpm and the forces must be massive. I have heard of cranks breaking beyond .5 US. I balanced my crank, pistons and rods and it feels better for it but the resonance is still there so its not a balance thing. A remap could help .

I am being a perfectionist but so I should be as this engine has the potential to be amazing. I'm frustrated that I cannot achieve that spot on state of tune when I know exactly whats required. I'm held back by one component. I wonder if audi use this mechanism to get older audis off the road? (phil you're so cynical)

So does anyone know of a maker of bespoke sputter bearings?
If only I could find a supply of .25 US sputters like VAG sold up to 2000. (046 105 707)

Regards
Phil

Crasher
10-01-2008, 06:26 PM
You know what, I nearly mentioned the Sputter bearing problem. I have had two genuine VAG exchange PG G60 engines start rattling. I pulled the caps off and they haven’t used Sputter bearings in the upper position as per original nor do they list them any more. I ordered some from KS and that cured both of them from rattling rod bearings so yes they are easily available off the shelf. In fact, I have to use the 5 cylinder AAT/AEL bearing set to do this as KS don’t list a G60 set. Did you fit new rod bolts?

philbarber
11-01-2008, 07:23 PM
Holy smoke you've succeeded where I failed. You found sputters.
If I can get some new sputters I will take the sump off and swop the top shells straight away. It's a bit of a fiddle but better than taking the engine out again. I presume the shells you purchased were .25 US?

Yes I did replace the rod bolts, and the crank end bolt. A must with these engines. I have a second AAT awaiting rebuild and if I can get sputters I may improve a few bits like the exhaust manifold which may be responsible for the 1600 resonance. This engine has so much potential.

Can you give me a good contact for KS bearings? besides myself, I know 3 companies who would like to have a product number and a contact for these.

Regards
Phil Barber

Crasher
13-01-2008, 02:40 PM
You can order them from GSF or Euro under the part number 77 244 610 for 0.25 u/s.

philbarber
14-01-2008, 05:29 PM
What can I say,
Crasher, Thank you very much. I and two companies have tried so hard to find those sputters and I have been so worried that this engine build may beat me just for the sake of one component, and waste a pile of cash. Now I can finish it with style.

Regards
Phil Barber.

philbarber
16-01-2008, 02:52 PM
To complete this thread heres what I have learned form my rebuild. Most people, re builders and garages will give up on AAT and AEL rebuilds because they will fail to find the parts and be fed disinformation. In reality it's a brilliant engine and can be rebuilt and improved so here are some of my lessons learnt from experience.

1 The one thing that will damage a 5 cylinder audi diesel is bad injection timing.
If your engine starts running rough and sounding like a landrover check your water pump and belts. No fault codes will show in the OBD. Water pump collapse will slacken your timing belt and throw the timing into chaos. Electrical or ECU problems that cause timing chaos will also do mechanical damage.

2 Audi will tell you that you cannot re grind these cranks but their in house data lists three under sizes. The reason is that audi will not sell you undersized bearings.

3 You must use sputter big end bearings available from KS bearings via www.allittmotorsport.co.uk (and maybe others) and cost £85 plus VAT. The Main bearings are not sputters and are easily available. Give your sputters to your grinder and they will grind to the correct spec.

4 Balancing is worthwhile as these pistons rods and cranks are not perfect. Wilkinson Dynamic balancing in Halseowen did a fine crank balance for me at £130. Not many companies can balance a 5 cylinder crank.

5 The front end of the engine has one major mechanical block, the pulley wheel or crank end bolt. It needs a pulley holder and a whacking great leaver on a socket both to get the old bolt off and a new one on. Engine failure will occur if you don't get the new one on to the correct torque. Cam belt jobs are blocked by this (special tool) bolt. I made 2, 6 foot tools to do this job. Contact me for these if you are in the midlands. 01785 818500

6 New bolts are a must. for both crank and head.

7 Timing the new engine up is a tricky and critical process which needs a couple of special tools but it's not rocket science.

I'm very willing to help anyone considering an AAT/AEL rebuild. I will freely give the benefit of my experience and contacts list. Just call me on the above number or via this site.

Phil Barber

Crasher
16-01-2008, 04:30 PM
The proper crank holding VW tool is number 3256 and costs £65.55 inc. VAT.

dean warren
24-01-2008, 06:48 PM
I'm very willing to help anyone considering an AAT/AEL rebuild. I will freely give the benefit of my experience and contacts list. Just call me on the above number or via this site.

Phil Barber
hi I'm very interested in timing on these engines, we have an aat and an ael, the aat runs very well, timing since the belt changes according to vagcom is dead on!, it does splutter and tick over a little rough sometimes, but the ael is the main concern, again belt's changed toothed crank sprocket and bolt and tensioner changed we can get it to start and run, when u set the timing on vagcom to ael 1000rpm it wont re start unless pump timing is moved, set it to ael 1200rpm and it will start but smoke.
what timing marks are you using? i have checked the marks on the ael 3 times, the cam is locked in place the bottom pulley appears to have a mark to line up with the lower timing cover, and there is a mark on the flywheel which lines up with the hole on the gearbox.
can you tell me where I've gone wrong?
we are in Dudley west mids.

Crasher
24-01-2008, 06:57 PM
There is a zero on the flywheel, don't trust the front pulley mark as it may have moved due to de-bonding of the rubber damping ring.

tut_gareth
24-01-2008, 11:18 PM
Exellent thread!

I'm thinking about rebuilding my AEL in the futere as it has 206k on it now and is starting to sound tractor like.
Still it's running lovely and starts fine but i'd like to improve it as it's a fantastic engine.

Cheers for the useful info.

(you may get some questions from me soon)

Regards

Gareth

jubbly
15-03-2008, 09:51 PM
Looks like I need my AEL rebuilt, I've been having starting problems since we changed the timing belt and has been smoking + high rocker cover presure since day 1.

We took the head off today hoping to find that the piston rings were sized due to overheating, not the case unfortunatly.

We found piston no.1 must have hit a valve when the cambelt snapped and the head was changed by a previous owner, though the edge of the piston was damadged to and this has left a nice score down the bore.

I'm going to have to get the bottom end rebuitl, any recomendations for people in the midlands and a guess at cost?

Cheers

Paul

Crasher
15-03-2008, 10:37 PM
A genuine exchange Audi bottom end is just under £1700.

jubbly
16-03-2008, 12:38 AM
A genuine exchange Audi bottom end is just under £1700.


I'm not paying any where near that! I won't be going to Audi :)

I'll get some prices on monday.

dean warren
16-03-2008, 12:10 PM
You can order them from GSF or Euro under the part number 77 244 610 for 0.25 u/s. do you have the part number for them std size?

scotty33
16-03-2008, 02:57 PM
std size Audi parts are: 034 105 701 - lower shell
034 105 701B - upper shell

I believe these are made by Kolben Schmidt, and the upper shell has its alloy coating applied by a 'sputtering' process - which gives better adherence to the steel backing than the traditional method.

Crasher
16-03-2008, 04:59 PM
Standard size shells from KS are 77 244 600 and I would try not to do a regrind if possible, especially no more than 0.25 or you go through the surface treatment and the crank then wears very quickly. The correct part number for the lower shell is 034 105 701 007 @ £5.03 each and the upper shell is 034 105 701 B 40Z @ £12.23 each so £86.15 for genuine bearings. The set from KS is much cheaper and still features the Sputter coated upper shell.

dean warren
16-03-2008, 05:54 PM
Standard size shells from KS are 77 244 600
are these avaliable from Euro car parts? or is there somewhere else you recomend? the crank doesn't need a regrind, but new shells will be fitted, also can these blocks be sleved? or is it a rebore and + sized pistons??

Crasher
16-03-2008, 09:46 PM
They should be available from any company that sells KS bearings such as GSF and many more. DO NOT sleeve the block, only re-bore O/S for new pistons, I find it hard to believe that 1960’s bodge practises are still used when simple recon methods are ignored. This is why I recommended a VAG exchange block. By the time you have re-bored/bodged (delete as appropriate), cleaned, bearings, new oil pump etc etc, you will have spent not far off what a genuine VAG exchange unit with a two year guarantee provides. But, nothing beats that smug foot wide grin that a rebuilt motor crafted by your own hand gives, until it let’s go!

scotty33
16-03-2008, 10:42 PM
The correct part number for the lower shell is 034 105 701 007 and the upper shell is 034 105 701 B 40Z

Apologies for the incomplete part no's, I did not realise that the missing suffices are part of the part number. :confused:

As ever, Crasher knows better, and the dealer probably is not the best source for these when you can buy KS elsewhere;)

Crasher
17-03-2008, 12:22 AM
You know what dealer parts types are like, give them a part number that is incorrect and that’s it, no way forward.:D

philbarber
17-03-2008, 10:28 PM
Apologies for the incomplete part no's, I did not realise that the missing suffices are part of the part number. :confused:

As ever, Crasher knows better, and the dealer probably is not the best source for these when you can buy KS elsewhere;)


Hi Scotty,
I Have a spair set of new Audi Std Sized Sputter bearings(034 105 701 A and B). I had to re grind my crank so these are redundant. Half price would be enough if you would like them just let me know.

Regards

Phil Barber.

jubbly
17-03-2008, 11:13 PM
Hi Scotty,
I Have a spair set of new Audi Std Sized Sputter bearings(034 105 701 A and B). I had to re grind my crank so these are redundant. Half price would be enough if you would like them just let me know.

Regards

Phil Barber.


I will need them for when my AEL is rebuilt. Unless your only offering them to Scotty :)

By the way where in Halesowen did you have your AAT done?

philbarber
18-03-2008, 04:07 PM
I will need them for when my AEL is rebuilt. Unless your only offering them to Scotty :)

By the way where in Halesowen did you have your AAT done?

Hi Jubbly,
I got mixed up with who was re building. Yes of course you can have my big end bearings if you wish. The company who balanced my crank was Wilkinson dynamic Balancing in Halesowen. They can balance almost anything including a 5 cylinder crank. Not many can do that.

Regards
Phil

jubbly
18-03-2008, 04:16 PM
HI,

Send me a pm if you like of how much you want for them and I can arrange a bank transfer or paypal if you prefer.

Cheers

Paul

jubbly
26-03-2008, 12:19 PM
HI,

Send me a pm if you like of how much you want for them and I can arrange a bank transfer or paypal if you prefer.

Cheers

Paul


Hi Phil,

Are you still wanting shut of these? I haven't heard anything from you about how much you want or where to send payment to, send me a private message if you like with the details.

Cheers

Paul

dean warren
26-03-2008, 08:33 PM
The proper crank holding VW tool is number 3256 and costs £65.55 inc. VAT.
do you buy this from vw? i've had a trade account with them for 10+ years they say they don't sell there tools??

Crasher
26-03-2008, 11:04 PM
They can't refuse, a thing called block exemption prevents them doing so BUT they do it anyway. They can order them for you if they want to.