Clutch judder

[tom smith]

55 saloon. B6 60000 miles.
Developed clutch judder symptoms a month or two ago ( say Oct 07) primarily if trying to move off at low throttle sometimes on flat , agravated by an incline.
This kind of thing doesn't improve with age !

:confused: any news / history / sure solution... on this one please ?.

[mluton]

Have a search on the site for DMF and Dual Mass Flywheel. This could be the cause of the judder.


Welcome to the site

[imc]

My 2.0 TDi Sport (54,000 miles) has the same problem. On my car it is more apparent on cold damp mornings, on dry days its fine. The problem persits for the first couple 'pull aways' and then seems fine. Is yours the same ? I have taken mine into the dealer however they have not been able to see the problem and it only seems to happen in certain weather conditions.

Regards

imc

[JontraK]

I can confirm this. 1.9 TDI Sport 68K. I;ve had this 'problem' since 32k... Usualy in cold weather and only for the first 2-3 pull aways, then its fine... Doesnt bother me but I'd love to know what causes this :S

[domestos]

I havent had thos symptons on my 55 plate saloon 2.0 TDI... done 65k -

Could be related to your general car usage- Inner City / Motorway / Country - mine is mostly Motorway so rarely use the clutch.

[WAB]

Tom

I have a Feb. 07 Passat Estate 2.0Tdi with 13,000miles and am having a new clutch fitted 3rd Jan. under warranty. Symptoms in my car are exactly as yours. If I have to sit in a slow moving traffic jam it gets really embarassing as the car starts to visibly shudder.

According to my honest service manager at the VW dealer, the dual mass flywheel system has been a disaster for VW - it is responsible for the judder on take up of the clutch. The only remedy is a complete replacement - of which VW have had to do many on Passats and Sharans.

Just keep pestering the dealer - he is responsible to put it right. If you want to PM or Email me I'll tell you the result of my replacement in a couple of weeks time

[tom smith]

In answer to several responses ( thanks for those ) general usage,,,say 60% motor way rest 50 / 50 country roads and of course town. Must be the roughly the same for large no. of coy. vehicles on todays UK roads.
However since the initial posting...I am advised VW have very kindly contributed to replacing the flywheel & clutch ( m/c was OOW ). However the symptoms can still occur mildly, with care it can be more or less eliminated, but you have to work at it. If you let it happen and put up with it, it will surely be detrimental to the drive-line over time. I believe general clutch engagement TLC is reqd. to become instinctive with it. The rest of the car justifies it. We'll see how she is in a few '000 mls.
WAB...plse advise your results when available. Tnks. T.

[JontraK]

However since the initial posting...I am advised VW have very kindly contributed to replacing the flywheel & clutch ( m/c was OOW ).

Hi Tom,

How much did the job cost and how much did VW contribute... if its not a secret? I am thinking into paying them a visit about my judder problem.

Rob

[Pauloz]

A worn DMF doesnt normally cause judder to be honest - more vibrations and noise. Ford have had more DMF issues than VW, especially transit, but i dont think that there is a fundamental problem. Its just another point of failure, something else to go wrong in a complicated system. VAG's main issue was with the 2.0 TDI engines when all the flywheels had to be recalled - but that wasnt because they failed, it was a material problem.

Agressive use of the clutch pedal (or accelerator) doesnt harm a DMF, it driving in too high a gear and therefore too much torque in the system does (common with taxis - its not the stop/starting) and also any excessive heat build up. Definately dont hold the car stationary on a hill using the clutch - really really bad for the DMF and clutch.

[BenR]

Can you explain why and show us a picture of a dual-mass flywheel?

[Quatrelle]

Can you explain why and show us a picture of a dual-mass flywheel?You could try here:

http://uk.ask.com/web?q=What+is+a+dual+mass+flywheel&search=search&dm=all&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir&siteid=

lots of links which might be helpful.

[Pauloz]

Here's a cutaway of a DMF
http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/media/_shared_media/products/passenger_cars/clutches___clutch_systems___dampers/dual_mass_flywheel__dmf_/ZMS_COL_3.jpg

Also here a link to blurb from the guys who invented them, and still make most of them.
http://www.luk.com/content.luk.de/en/products/dampers/zms_sv/zms_lv/zms_lv.jsp

Basically 2 semicircular springs, always under tension, with a plate in the centre which rotates up to 100 degrees. All its there for is to dampen torsional vibrations from the crank - with each piston firing taking the punch out with otherwise is transmitted into the drive train. Does a similar job to springs in the drive plate window - but to a much greater amount, required by modern engines, and drivers demands on VM's for improved refinement and comfort.

The springs are compressed more under higher torque, but normally for short periods. Driving in to higher a gear puts more torque into the system continually, and will start to wear the stops at the ends of the springs, introducing more free play. Historically the same as springs popping out the windows in the drive plate - same cause.

Juddering is when the drive plate slips between the pressure plate of the clutch, and the flywheel. Normally because the drive plate has lost fricton, by being cooked, or worn/too thin which reduces clamp load. Can also be a release system problem meaning the clutch is partically engaged, and therefore slipping. The flywheel face has to be completely mullered to cause juddering - damage that can only be caused by a knackered drive plate!
A worn DMF can shake a clutch to bits though, ripping rivets out of the friction lining, or the centre out of the plate. Symptoms more drastic than juddering normally ;)

Hope that helps! Hell, I thought i had a week off work! :biglaugh:

[Quatrelle]

Hope that helps! Hell, I thought i had a week off work! :biglaugh:Worth the effort - it's a lot better answer than mine!

[BenR]

Interesting, thanks! As I suspected then, it's a torsional vibration damper.

I recently installed a second hand LT230Q (quiet) transfer box in my 1986 Land Rover 90, which came off a crashed Td5. It has greater "slope" on the gear teeth to make it run more quietly and it has a whacking great counterweight made of a lamination of steel and rubber bolted on, apparently this was added when Land Rover engineers discovered that the 5 cylinder diesel had a tendency to set up harmonic vibrations in the long drivetrain.

However this hasn't made as much difference to the smoothness of the engine as when I fitted PAS off a Tdi, which includes a heavier double pulley on the front of the crankshaft. The extra mass of the pulley made a dramatic difference to the engine vibrations. I'd have thought that the ancillaries such as the alternator and the PAS pump and their drive belts also have a damping effect on torsional vibrations.

[Pauloz]

Interesting, thanks! As I suspected then, it's a torsional vibration damper.

I recently installed a second hand LT230Q (quiet) transfer box in my 1986 Land Rover 90, which came off a crashed Td5. It has greater "slope" on the gear teeth to make it run more quietly and it has a whacking great counterweight made of a lamination of steel and rubber bolted on, apparently this was added when Land Rover engineers discovered that the 5 cylinder diesel had a tendency to set up harmonic vibrations in the long drivetrain.

However this hasn't made as much difference to the smoothness of the engine as when I fitted PAS off a Tdi, which includes a heavier double pulley on the front of the crankshaft. The extra mass of the pulley made a dramatic difference to the engine vibrations. I'd have thought that the ancillaries such as the alternator and the PAS pump and their drive belts also have a damping effect on torsional vibrations.
Found out the other day that the TD5 has 60kgs of ballast in the rear of the chassis to dampen vibration for the boot fit seats!!! :eek: My mate works down at Gaydon. No wonder the things are so heavy. Also, the core of the wiring loom weighs 250kg!!

[BenR]

If you look around under modern Discoverys and Range Rovers you'll find all kinds of strange weights bolted on, which were added to alter the mass and therefore the vibration frequency of things like axles, gearboxes etc. There is a name for it, which is some kind of industry jargon for "desperate last-minute bodges".

[tom smith]

JontraK..will try to find out, but we run a fleet. .....your email addr ? TS

[WAB]

In answer to several responses ( thanks for those ) general usage,,,say 60% motor way rest 50 / 50 country roads and of course town. Must be the roughly the same for large no. of coy. vehicles on todays UK roads.
However since the initial posting...I am advised VW have very kindly contributed to replacing the flywheel & clutch ( m/c was OOW ). However the symptoms can still occur mildly, with care it can be more or less eliminated, but you have to work at it. If you let it happen and put up with it, it will surely be detrimental to the drive-line over time. I believe general clutch engagement TLC is reqd. to become instinctive with it. The rest of the car justifies it. We'll see how she is in a few '000 mls.
WAB...plse advise your results when available. Tnks. T.

TOM

New clutch and flywheel fitted and judder gone - now driving sweetly.

Walter

[tom smith]

WAB....Good news. Would be nice to know what the change / s are. Anyone know ? TS.

[Pauloz]

WAB....Good news. Would be nice to know what the change / s are. Anyone know ? TS.
Do you mean to the flywheel? Nothing functional bud - a material change from magnesium to steel for safety reason AFAIK. But to be fair - if anything is changed functionally, no one normally knows. Even at OE level at best all they'll notice is a different part number..... not even that sometimes. Often parts are redesigned but keep the original part number, otherwise cataloging for the aftermarket would be horrendous ;)
Main dealers sure as hell wont know - most of what they come out with is guesswork, theres no flow of information from manufactures.