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brybrybry
03-11-2007, 08:15 PM
Just wondering if anyone has any ideas. My 1994 Golf GTI 8v recently broke down, I had pulled up at the petrol station and the on trying to restart the car it failed to restart, it would turn over but not kick in and actually start, RAC guy came out and tested a few things and advised the ignition coil had gone.

I replaced this and the car would start but only randomly, sometimes it will start fine and idle at 800-900rpm other times it will blip up to about 1000rpm for about 10 to 20 seconds and then cut out, once it starts it runs nice and smooth but the rev limiter kicks in at 5000rpm. I then replaced all spark plugs, leads, disi cap and rotory arm, also changed the fuel filter, also tried changeing the ECU relay but the problem still resists.

Ran VagCOM and got the following error

1 Fault Found:
00515 - Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor (G40)
16-00 - Signal Outside Specifications

I have tralled numerous forums and most people advise to try the above when the engine is randomly cutting out but i cant find anything for problems with just starting as once it has finnally started the car is fine other than the rev limiter kicking in, the only other things are to change the distribution unit or engine sensor or worst case the ECU
Anyone any ideas on what else i can try without having to fork out any more money.

a8 tech
03-11-2007, 09:25 PM
check wiring from g40 to ecu for any high resistance,if ok replace g40

Crasher
03-11-2007, 09:37 PM
Is the engine code 2E or ADY?

brybrybry
03-11-2007, 09:39 PM
Crasher - It is a ADY engine code.

Crasher
03-11-2007, 09:56 PM
OK, so a 95 model then, the ADY was used in the Golf 3 from 10/94 to 12/95. On a Simos management engine such as the ADY and AGG, you can unplug the hall sender and the engine will still keep running with the only really noticeable effect being the engine rev limiter cutting in at 5000 rpm so the hall sender isn't the problem. What may be an issue is if the distributor is seriously out of alignment due to the bolt coming loose or cam belt timing errors so firstly you need to take off the top belt cover and remove the 27-mm internal hex green gearbox bung. Align the engine to TDC number 1 using a 12 point 19-mm socket on the front pulley so that the 0 mark on the cam pulley is in line with the mark on the cam cover and the notch on the front pulley is in line with the pointer on the lower plastic cover and also the cast in dot on the flywheel is in line with the pointer inside the gearbox hole opening. Now check that the centre of the rotor arm is in line with the small notch in the top edge of the distributor body with the cap removed. The correct alignment must be done in measuring blocks 08 at idle but checking the alignment visually would be your first step. I take it you have VAG-COM?

a8 tech
03-11-2007, 11:20 PM
I would still consider g40 and to save time just have some one test it on the scope which will tell show you the fluctuation of the on/off time of the hall effect as you say rev limitation at 5000 rpm which indictes its reading is defectve also knock regulation and reduced power as cylinder position 1 is lost hence delayed startup.I would follow crashers advice as it basic stuff to check distributor and valve timing is correct but if the dizzy is insecure or has moved from its position you would have all kinds of running issues as the timing would be unregulated where as a g40 playing up would give you intermitant starting/delayed starting and reduced power as the injectors will just chuck fuel in as you will lose sequential injection.Intresting problem

Crasher
03-11-2007, 11:41 PM
The hall sender G40 has no effect on the ignition timing on an ADY

From Elsa
Note:

The position of the distributor does not influence the ignition timing.


as the timing is referenced from the crank speed sender. The G40 is only responsible for indicating the position of number 1 cylinder for sequential fuelling. The hall sender isn't separately replaceable so it means a new dizzy from VW, 037 905 237 BX at £129.25

Col
04-11-2007, 11:17 AM
The hall sender G40 has no effect on the ignition timing on an ADY

From Elsa
as the timing is referenced from the crank speed sender. The G40 is only responsible for indicating the position of number 1 cylinder for sequential fuelling. The hall sender isn't separately replaceable so it means a new dizzy from VW, 037 905 237 BX at £129.25

From an ex-owners point of view on this...

The crank sensor died on ours, killed the car stone dead , would turn over but wouldn't start.

A right pain to change as well as the front centre engine mounting has to come off ! But is do-able if your reasonable with the spanners.

Also on the ADY, they are notorious for the injection relay failing (ours did), this cured the random (with no faults) cutting out problem the car also had.

Good bullet proof engine though, shame it has such iffy electrics.

brybrybry
05-11-2007, 01:57 PM
I checked the timing over the weekend and it was a whole tooth out, this has now been sorted and it will now rev past 5000rpm but still having a few issues regarding the car starting. It would start 1st or 2nd time yesterday from cold and when warm, but coming to it this morning it took 6 or 7 tries before the engine would kick in properly, every other time the revs would blip upto 1000rpm and then drop to 0 and the car would die immediately. Even if i kept my foot on the alcelerator for a minute letting go the revs would just drop and the engine would die.

Once it finally got going it was running fine although while driving along the motorway this morning after about 30 odd miles at about 70mph the engine completely died on me and i had to pull over, the car started again immediately and i was able to continue but just a bit worrying.

I havent managed to get my laptop connected up to see if there are any error codes in vag com today but hopefully when and if i get home tonight i will get a chance.

Crasher
05-11-2007, 07:04 PM
You should see "engine speed sensor" as a fault and maybe also "engine start blocked by immobiliser". If neither of these come up, replace the ECU relay at position 3 with the number 30 printed on top, part number 165 906 381.

Col
05-11-2007, 08:02 PM
Another thing to remember on this engine is that the timing isn't all about the cam and crank relationship. You also have the intermediate shaft that drives the dizzy. it is very easy to knock the dizzy timing out whilst doing a belt change although the cam and crank timing are spot on.

You can properly set up the timing via vagcom.

brybrybry
05-11-2007, 08:28 PM
When i plugged in my laptop and ran vag com the only error coming up on the engine was as follows

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-S
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 025 P
Component and/or Version: SIMOS 4S 2570
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000
1 Fault Found:
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
P1570 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

I have tried replacing relay 30 as my brother has the same year golf and the problem still persisted, anything else worth trying after clearing this code?

a8 tech
05-11-2007, 09:42 PM
If the engine speed sender is failing intermitantly it will also cut the fuel as if i remember it powers the fuel pump relay.Once the vehicle is started the fault code may well not store intermitant code and the codes you have are immobilizer faults due to none start from cranking.I think its time to change the engine speed sender.As Big c said make sure also the camshaft pulley hasent been knocked out by checking the relation of the rotor arm on the dizzy.

Col
05-11-2007, 11:15 PM
When i plugged in my laptop and ran vag com the only error coming up on the engine was as follows

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-S
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 025 P
Component and/or Version: SIMOS 4S 2570
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000
1 Fault Found:
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
P1570 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

I have tried replacing relay 30 as my brother has the same year golf and the problem still persisted, anything else worth trying after clearing this code?

If the timing is out, it is unlikely to throw a fault code.

If you have vagcom, go into the engine measuring blocks and observe the timing.

Col
05-11-2007, 11:22 PM
If the engine speed sender is failing intermitantly it will also cut the fuel as if i remember it powers the fuel pump relay.Once the vehicle is started the fault code may well not store intermitant code and the codes you have are immobilizer faults due to none start from cranking.I think its time to change the engine speed sender.As Big c said make sure also the camshaft pulley hasent been knocked out by checking the relation of the rotor arm on the dizzy.

On the 2.0 8v, you have an intermediate shaft that is totally separate to the cam and crank.

You can time up the cam and crank and they wont move, however, this intermediate shaft is free to turn and it is easy to knock the timing out without even realising it. I know cos I did it when I did the belt change on our old MK3 !

The shaft runs all the way through the block from the belt end to the dizzy end and is easily mistaken for an idler pully... IT ISN'T !! ;)

The way I got the timing back was to remove the dizzy cap and made sure the rotor was pointing to the Nr.1 segment on the cap (when cap refitted). Once you have the basic timing set up this way, use vagcom to accurately set it.

Good luck.

P.S. Have you carried out a throttle body alignment after cleaning it ?

Crasher
05-11-2007, 11:43 PM
If the dizzy setting was out it would generate fault code “00515 Hall sender -G40 Signal outside tolerance” and it would not rev past 5000 rpm BUT it would still pay to check the clocking of the distributor in measuring blocks 08, display group 007 where the figure in display zone 1 should be between 57 and 60 or 1 and the figure in display zone 2 should be between 5 and 8.

brybrybry
06-11-2007, 08:56 PM
rotor arm, cam and crank are all lined up correctly and it does rev over 5000rpm now, just the starting issue.

measuring block 08 shows the following zone 1 shows 1 and the figure in zone 2 is 8 so they are all correct.

I have ordered a new engine speed sensor so when that gets delivered and i get chance to fit it we will see how it goes, until then thanks for all your help guys/gals

brybrybry
12-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Just a quick update for all the people that have helped me so far.

Saturday I replaced the engine speed sensor which was easier than initaially thought, however on trying to start the engine again it failed, no errors of any kind in VAG COM. At this point frustration and anger took hold :zx11:

Although after having a brew and a bacon butie me and my dad decided to switch the ignition coil from my brothers Mk3 GTI to mine to see if it was the new coil, with my brothers coil attached it started first time, every time and sat and idled about 800-1000rpm. So off to euro car parts (ECP) to buy another ignition coil (this time a genuine part rather than after market substitue) On the way to ECP my car started backfiring and dropping all revs and the power cutting out but not stalling the engine. Eventually got the new coil and several cut outs later got home. Put my brothers coil back in his car and the new one in mine and again started first time everytime, from hot and from cold and after leaving it over night it started first time.
I took it out for a few runs over the weekend (over 100miles in total), both from been warm and been cold and I have had no further issues with power and revs dropping.

When i got to my car this morning and it was all frozen up i thought here we go its going to pack up on me now just to be a sod, but it started fine, cruised along the motorway without a problem today so looks like the issues has been resolved.

So seems i just got unlucky with the new ignition coil and it must have been faulty in some way, although without the coil going in the first place i would have never found that the timing was out as i dont generally rev it to 5000rpm.

Thanks for all your help guys it has been very much appreciated and i look forward to been a member of this great online community.

Cheers :beerchug:

brybrybry
19-11-2007, 01:58 PM
Hi sorry me again.

Late last week after several days of driving without any problems i have noticed while cruising along at say 30 or 40mph the car will randomly feel like it drops some revs although the rev needle stays where it is the car will slow down slightly and you can feel it pull again with a slight jerk. This seems to happen when warm or cold and only when cruising at a constant speed, when accelerating the car is fine.

Late last week i had some more starting issues in that the car would fail to start and the only way i could get the engine to keep running was to rev it on starting upto 2000rpm where it would judder and then i would ease it back down to 1000 rpm after a minute or so and it would drive fine again albeit with the slight juddering when cruising along. Also had some times when the engine would start and the revs would go upto 2000rpm or there abouts on its own then gradually reduce down to about 1000rpm

I decided to replace relay 30 with a new one (as i had only temporarily borrowed the one out of my brothers car to test on mine when the starting issues arose) and relay 167 which i belive is the fuel pump relay and this seemed to have cured it for a couple of days and i havent noticed any jerks when driving.

But on coming to start my car this morning it failed to start again first time, started second time fine, is there anything else you guys can think of that could be causing the intermittent starting problems or anything else i can try. I will see how it goes over the rest of the week as finger crossed this morning was just a one off.

Also not had chance to stick vag com on recently to see if there are any new codes so will give this a go tonight.

Crasher
19-11-2007, 02:09 PM
Report back later after the code read.

brybrybry
19-11-2007, 07:55 PM
Got home tonight, drive was fine apart from slight blip in the revs when in traffic, nothing major just the odd flick up from 800 to about 850/900. No jerking or anything when cruising at speed.

Plugged in Vag-com with ignition on and got the following error

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-S
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 025 P
Component and/or Version: SIMOS 4S 2570
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000
2 Faults Found:
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
P1570 - 35-00 - -
17978 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1570 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent

Cleared the codes, switched the ignition off and then started the car, revs went straigt to 1000 then cut out, checked error codes in vag com and got

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-S
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 025 P
Component and/or Version: SIMOS 4S 2570
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000
1 Fault Found:
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
P1570 - 35-00 - -

Cleared code and started engine again and worked fine and idled at about 800rpm.

Turned off and on a few times and worked fine most the time albeit one of the times revs went upto about 1500rpm and then dropped down to 1000 after 5-10 seconds

Crasher
19-11-2007, 09:04 PM
Read the immobiliser for codes, I think you have a faulty immobiliser system, possibly the reader coil or the immobiliser box itself.

brybrybry
19-11-2007, 10:11 PM
No error codes in the immobiliser but i presume this is becuase i cleared the engine error codes after the last failed start, ill see how it goes over the rest of the week and plug in my laptop after the next failed start.

brybrybry
21-11-2007, 03:21 PM
checked the error codes after the last failed start which was yesterday when leaving work, got
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
P1570 - 35-00 - -
In the engine part and there were no faults found in the Immobilizer section in vagcom, does this narrow it down to anything.

Also is there a way to bypass the immobilizer.

Crasher
21-11-2007, 06:49 PM
The two most common reasons for this are the reader coil or the immobiliser box itself. I would start by changing the reader coil.

brybrybry
22-11-2007, 03:33 PM
You wouldnt happen to know the VW parts number for the reader coil and ignition unit, my local VW garage dont seem to be too good on locating parts without one, i have had a search round the web but can seem to find them

Crasher
22-11-2007, 06:25 PM
The reader coil is 1H0 953 254 F £38.13 and the immobiliser box is 1H0 953 257 BX (exchange) £108.91. The latter will need to be installed by someone who knows what they are doing.

brybrybry
11-01-2008, 11:17 AM
Bit of a while since i posted a reply to this as i have been busy and car has been ok for a while now, problem is just random.

Any way i ordered a 1H0 953 254 F and attempted to fit it last weekend only to find the plug has an extra plastic ridge on the flat end so it wont fit into the hole on the immobiliser unit where it plugs in. Checking the part number of my reader unit it said it was a 1H0 953 254 B, so I took the new one back to the VW garage who checked on their system and said that the 1H0 953 254 B has been superseded by 1H0 953 254 E and he even showed me the monitor to prove it, the problem been that the new part still has a extra ridge on the plug to stop it from going in. The VW guy said that it should be fine to cut the ridge off and use it, although if it doesnt work he said it could potentially kill the whole immobiliser. Does anyone know if this is correct and can i just adapt the plug so it will fit without any problems?

Hope that makes sense

Crasher
11-01-2008, 05:05 PM
I have had this and did the same and it worked. Just to be sure, before you go any further, PM me your reg number so I can check.

Crasher
11-01-2008, 05:22 PM
Your car is actually a 95 model built on 15/11/94. The reader coil 1H0 953 254 B has gone to an F (not E) and I don't think you will have a problem cutting off the ridge interfering, as I said I have done it and didn’t have a problem.