CLUTCH AGAIN - only 50K

[ChillOut]

54 130 TDI Estate. Judder was apparent since 20K, slowly got worse and worse until VW agreed it was faulty at 40K (2 years old) and then said it was all worn out and charged £1000 to replace it and the flywheel.

Well of course it was worn, I'd be slipping it more and more to ease the judder for 20,000 miles.

The lease co picked up the tab, but I am buying the car in January.

Now, after less than 10K further miles, the judder is back, slowly getting worse. VW agree its there, but refuse to replace as its not bad enough yet. Don't worry they say, its got a 2 year warranty.

Call me cycnical, but you just know that when it does go (and it will), they will claim wear and tear.

Any ideas how I get these gits to realise there is a problem and more important, what on earth is causing it?

The lease co sent an "independent" engineer to review the problem. He agreed it was apparent and actually stated that excessively slipping the clutch relieved the symptoms, but they still would not agree it needed looking at. The report may hold me in good stead with VW when it does fail because I can refer to the report and state that wear is a direct result of the underlying fault that they have not cured.

An interesting point, but I don't know what it means, is that when they replaced the clutch and flywheel they still had judder and had to dismantle again and replace one more part. There was still the faintest echo of a judder even on day one after repalcement too but I tried to ignore it.

The other thing is that if I have a situation that aggrevates it - steep hill start, rapid get away, it will then be worse for a while before settling down again with extra gentle treatment. Its as if just one hill start will warp it slightly and then if you gently wear away the high spots it recovers.

(Never had a clutch problem on any other car in 25 years - the engineer agreed it was not user error!)

[fozzie]

Well dont Chill out.
For them to say that its "not bad enough yet" is their way of getting rid of the problem. Do they drive the car everyday having to deal with stop starts hill climbs etc. No. They take it for a 5 mile drive and say its not that bad.
It is when you have to drive it for 5 or 10 thousand miles.
for them to admit it has a fault and to have repalced the clutch, taken it apart again as there was a judder, and then for it to be replaced and still have a judder says that they cant ignore the problem.

I would not let this go. I would take it back again and say you are not happy and that it needs to be sorted.
I would keep back the independant enquiry info, and use that as your joker card, when inevitably they do say that it is due to you and your aggressive, clutch slipping hill climbing driving style.

Fozzie!

[Pauloz]

Prob is bud, that excessive slipping of the clutch, WILL knacker the flywheel. There only 5mm of steel surface separating the grease immersed springs of the flywheel, so can be suseptible to heat damage.
From what youve said, I'm not convinced its a flywheel problem though. Its normally trying to accelarate at low revs that causes a vibration there, not hill starts or fast get aways. In general, clutch problems don't get better. Once damaged, they deteriorate. Heat damage is irreversible on all fronts.....

[ChillOut]

This is why I can't understand why the engineer said it was OK.

Although I am no expert, it seems inevitable that the problem just gets worse. Do I allow the judder until it damages the drivetrain or fails, or slip as best I can till it wears out. Between a rock and a hard place (or a flywheel and a clutch plate).

Of course, what I really want to know is why my car is suseptible in the first place. VW did illude to having used their 2nd preference clutch/flywheel as the other was on 6 week lead time. Does that mean anything to anyone?

I did read one horror thread of some guy who went through 7 clutches on a Passat.

An independant VW specialist did tell me that old VW clutches would last 500K treated well. He does say that with the new ones you should be happy with 100K. Its not impressive, but I would be, actually! He did admit it was good for business.

Oh, does anyone know why the new non-asbestos clutches don't last, but I am barely half way through my non-asbestos brake pads at 50K? Passat brakes are very effecive and I do make benefit of that, yet the pads wear well. So why not clutches?

[Pauloz]

There's 2 manufactures of clutch and flywheel on VW - LuK, who's OE in most cases and invented the DMF, and Sachs whos OE on some but I dont think your model - but cant be 100% on that. With the vagarities of registration dates, often you cant tell till the box comes off. Important thing though is to replace both with the same manufacturer.
Incidentally LuK show 3 flywheels on this model based on engine code, and also a chassis number split. Sachs have one freom the info i have.

100k is a short to average mileage for a clutch these days. Our company Passats typically needed replacing after 120 ish, with quite a bit of motorway. My 99 Bora did 140k before we replaced it as a training exercise. Not sure where the 500k comes from! Clutch generally lasts longer now that 20 years ago..... just takes 4x as long to change so its just as well.
Non asbestos clutches are more suseptible to heat damage, and oil contamination - which still happens allarmingly often; modern clutches dont need lubrication at all, just a little to help onto the splines, nothing on the bearing should be used.

I cant see that you'll be able to s;ip the judder out, period. All you'll do is damage the clutch sorry.

[ChillOut]

Thanks Paul,

I think they said the OE fitment was on wait from Germany, so does that mean it was Sachs or LUK? And would in make any difference in reality (is one known for being stronger etc). If I can influence which one gets fitted once I persaude someone to replace it, I'd like to influence getting the best version in if that's possible.

I suspect the 500K came from one clutch he knew of. Clutches seem to have gone through a cycle of life expectancy, being fairly low in the 70's and rising through the 80's only to fall back again some time between then and now.

I did get the clutch hot manouerving a trailer up a slope - about 800kg, about 10% slope. Got a bit smelly. But if this means a modern clutch is u/s after just one episode of moving something like this that's well within spec of the car (ie towing 1600kg start on a 12% slope) then to me the design is seriously flawed and in fact not fit for purpose.

Is there anything I should do to avoid this happening again? I have been driving 25 years and in the IAM, but I am willing to learn. However, I can't see further advice than 1) if towing a heavy load pull away gently 2) pick the clutch up before hard acceleration 3) use minimum revs/power to achieve this. 4) never manouvre by slipping, always get the clutch up and use tickover. And of course never ride the clutch.

[Pauloz]

Sachs and LuK could both come from Germany unfotunately so doesnt help much.

And sorry bud, but one episode of severe clutch overheating can wreak it permanently :( Might be ok for a while yet, but both the clutch friction lining, and the grease immersed DMF springs, are suseptible to heat damage.
You may say thats not fit for purpose..... but theyre not designed for towing. Most warranties wont cover towing so don't mention it if you do claim :naughty:
To design a clutch to cope better with towing would mean a heavier pedal (from increased clamp load), or a bigger clutch, to facilitate a small percentage of users. Both of which are undesirable for vehicle manufacturers unless absolutely nessesary.

You know whow to drive mate, all your comments are spot on. Just one thing missing which can accelarate wear, especially to DMF, is driving in too higher gear for the road speed, which compresses the springs in the DMF too much and can start to wear the ends, and from there will deteriorate further.
Similar thing historically to when the springs pop out of the windows in the clutch plate from being under too much tension for too long. Taxi drivers are buggers for it trying to save fuel, as well as 'careful' old ladies.... and of course white van men!

[OpenRoad]

Thanks pauloz,

I have been trying to fathom out how I had knacked my clutch after 50K (Passat B5 130BHP TDi)

Guess who plonks it 5th gear at 30 and putts along the road :Blush2: