A4 excessive oil consumption, piston rings really?

[SeGMENT]

After a nightmare purchase last weekend of a 2009 A4 2.0 TFSI S Tronic I have bought another 2009 A4 2.0 TFSI manual.

Its a lovely car that's fully loaded and I'm shocked to see it may be one of these excessive oil burners, gutted.

*** with no dip stick ?

I'm covered by a 'Franchise Dealership' 12 month warranty and my question is do I return the car for a full refund whilst I can or do I try to get them to fix it ?

Is the car all good once the piston rings have been replaced ?

I've done a stack of reading on here about this issue and replacing piston rings isn't exactly a minor serviceable item LoL

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/152781-A4-oil-consumption?highlight=excessive+oil
(http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/152781-A4-oil-consumption?highlight=excessive+oil)
Please Help Audi A5 2.0T oil issue repair - out of warranty (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/158285-Audi-A5-2-0T-oil-issue-repair-out-of-warranty)

[niall campbell]

you say " IT MAY " be an oil burner

Have you done a compression test ? Is there blue smoke from the exhaust ?

You might be panicking about nothing.

If I was you, change the oil & filter, put Fully Synthetic oil in it & change every 10,000 miles. My A6 after 10,000 miles needed frequent top ups . However, since I have changed from 20,000 mile oil changes to 10,000 , I do not need any topping up for oil.

Change oil & monitor it is my advice.

My boys 1.2 Polo got the piston rings/ oil rings changed ................................ it never had blue smoke but burnt a lot of oil .................................. but after oil rings done, its as good as new

[SeGMENT]

No testing has been done at this stage and it is due a service.

I'm going to top it up with the 1 Ltr its asking for and then monitor it to see how many miles it does before it asks me again for more oil.

Its been hard to tell at the moment if its smoking or not as its been cold, there have been clouds coming from the exhaust and just dissipating, I'm assuming this is just water vapour.

Worst case scenario is piston rings need replacing but the important bit is that I do not end up footing the bill for that.

Watchdog 5 minute video clip all about this engine is very interesting indeed
BBC One - Watchdog - Audi's oil-guzzling issues (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1Q2rXBpVsXVQ12hVFmxMBjP/audis-oil-guzzling-issues)

[Crasher]

The proper test has to be carried out in a very specific manner using VAS-PC and the oil has to be weighed before and after (note, weighed not measured). It is also not unknown for the dealer to "tamper protect" the dip stick tube and other areas such as the drain plug to prevent "customer exaggeration adjustment", if you know what I mean. The specification is that the consumption should not exceed 1 litre per 1000km (620 miles) in "normal" driving.

[SeGMENT]

Dealership is taking it back, they reckon not worth bothering fixing, full refund will be issued.

This is the 2nd Audi I've had in 2 weeks that's got major problems.

Question is do I go for 3rd time lucky ?

Obviously Audi's are not what they used to be and in my current experience I would say they are ****.

Whats a good Audi, anyone ???

[Darren Smith]

will cost £500 max to fix, I've just gone through your situation, the garage are talking crap if they won't pay out £500 to fix it.

[SeGMENT]

What was the fix ?

[Darren Smith]

long story....


bought a A4 2.0T S line, found out it had the oil problem, only got 380 miles (a tank of fuel) before my light came on. took it into audi for a oil consumption test, which it failed, with my car only having part Dealer service history, they were not willing to pay for full repair as good will, so i had to pay 10% of the cost (£500), i got onto the garage i bought it from, they fully complied with no hassle or fuss, came down to audi and paid them £500 so my engine rebuild/replacement can't start, i get my car back next monday, been given a brand new A1 Sline for the week while the work is completed.

if you love the car, i would get it sorted, you may be lucky and get a new engine out of it.

Edit: the fix is new con rods and piston rings. if the engine is badly damaged though audi replace the engine

[markp306]

and in my current experience I would say they are ****.



So, what you might need is a 2012 facelift / 8.5 model....much better bet in my experience.

[SeGMENT]

I cant find another to replace it with, its such a lovely car.

You have given me something to consider, I will phone Audi tomorrow and see about getting a consumption test done.

Even though my car has warranty from dealership (12 months) they do not want to enter into a world of repair, its refund or takes your chances.

I don't mind paying a few hundred quid towards a £5K repair but is the repair enough, has any other damage been done ?
Is the CAT screwed ?
Is the turbo screwed ?
Etc
What damage is being done by all this oil burning off ?

That's my sticking point .... ?

[SeGMENT]

So, what you might need is a 2012 facelift / 8.5 model....much better bet in my experience.

Im not sure what that is ... Can you provide me with an example please ?

[Darren Smith]

I cant find another to replace it with, its such a lovely car.

You have given me something to consider, I will phone Audi tomorrow and see about getting a consumption test done.

Even though my car has warranty from dealership (12 months) they do not want to enter into a world of repair, its refund or takes your chances.

I don't mind paying a few hundred quid towards a £5K repair but is the repair enough, has any other damage been done ?
Is the CAT screwed ?
Is the turbo screwed ?
Etc
What damage is being done by all this oil burning off ?

That's my sticking point .... ?


when you phone just tell them you're car is drinking oil like no tomorrow, they will book you in for a free oil consumption test, car valet and like a 40 point car inspection.
you get a audi guarantee on the work done if you get a rebuilt/new engine.

this is a well documented problem that is all over the internet with the 2.0 tfsi engines. america won a class action lawsuit against audi and have all been fixed for free.
if you have a full audi service history you will get yours done for free, so you wudnt need to return the car back if you didn't want to

[SeGMENT]

I've got a full Audi service history so will pursue the route of trying to get it fixed.

What part of the country are you in ?

[Darren Smith]

you will have no problem getting it fixed for free then :) the audi customer service i received was one of the best I've ever had, there was no need to fight my corner, they just advised and told me the worst case and best case scenarios. even helped sorting out the bill and getting it straight to the garage i bought it from. car was in straight away after it failed its test.

I'm from newcastle, car has went into Newcastle Audi.
work takes about a week to do, and you get a free courtesy car of audi while the works being done so your not inconvenienced in any way too!

[SeGMENT]

That sounds good, I'm a bit further down south from you so unfortunately wont be same garage.

When you say they helped sort out the bill, are you saying that you paid 10% and the garage where you bought your Audi from paid the rest ?

I've been told by the dealership that they wont pay for repairs at all, its refund or nothing.

[Darren Smith]

its a £5000 repair

if you have full audi service history you pay £0, audi uk pay for it all

if you have part history (like me) audi uk pay 90% and customer pays 10% - but with me owning the car for 2 weeks, the garage paid for it, no fuss or quibble too

by the sounds of it, the garage mustn't of had much mark up on the car, either that or they think they are facing a £5000 repair bill themselves, strange that they just want to fully refund you straight away though and not attempt to see what the outcome of the problem will be

[markp306]

Im not sure what that is ... Can you provide me with an example please ?

have a look at Audi's used cars web site. The external visual clues include restyled lights, but it will be any model built in the last 4-ish years, from a 12 plate (maybe some 61s too).

[SeGMENT]

have a look at Audi's used cars web site. The external visual clues include restyled lights, but it will be any model built in the last 4-ish years, from a 12 plate (maybe some 61s too).

Ok I see what you mean, sorry I thought you meant facelifted older cars.

The 12 plates are outside my current budget, I would like to go for a 10 plate S4 after this 2.0 TFSI but its not gonna happen this year.

[SeGMENT]

its a £5000 repair

if you have full audi service history you pay £0, audi uk pay for it all

if you have part history (like me) audi uk pay 90% and customer pays 10% - but with me owning the car for 2 weeks, the garage paid for it, no fuss or quibble too

by the sounds of it, the garage mustn't of had much mark up on the car, either that or they think they are facing a £5000 repair bill themselves, strange that they just want to fully refund you straight away though and not attempt to see what the outcome of the problem will be

Today I will make inroads into getting it fixed.

Im still interested to know what damage this oil burning is doing to the rest of the cars components though.

[SeGMENT]

**UPDATE**

Phoned Audi UK this morning and dealt with someone who was aware of this issue. They told me I would need the consumption test doing and it wouldn't cost me any money. Transferred me to my local dealership who were very helpful at this stage but thought I should be paying, a quick reminder that I wont be paying and then the arrangements were made for the car to go in. Its going to be a few weeks yet as I wanted a temporary car whilst they have mine but the ball is now rolling :D

I drove it to work this morning thinking what a great car it is and I really hope they put a new engine in it as that would be like Xmas :p

[SeGMENT]

**2nd UPDATE**

Car has been into Audi. They explained the procedure if the car fails consumption test, they need for a week etc.
They sent me off in a 15 plate A4 TFSI S Line whilst they did some things to my car.
They kept my car for an extra day then gave it back to me saying go drive it round until the oil warning message comes on.

What could they have done to fix it in the 2 days they had it ? Thicker oil ?

[Darren Smith]

new oil breather, software update, oil drained and a measured quantity of oil put back in. drive your car, i noticed the harder i drove the car the faster the oil disappeared :)

just to let you know, i also got a major service and a 3 year service plan ontop for free when i had my rebuild

[SeGMENT]

**3rd UPDATE**

Car failed consumption test and arrangements have been made for the work to be done to fix the issue.

They told me that the procedure is to replace the pistons & rings and they will need the car for a week. I will be sent off in a courtesy car, so of course I requested an RS4, lets see what happens there :p

Doesn't sound like I'm getting a brand new engine at this point but I cant complain as none of this is costing me any money. Would be super nice if they dropped a brand new engine in it for me though. :D

I'm getting excited now and I have to say I've been treated very well by Audi up to this point, the free valeting of the car every time it goes in is a nice touch as well, I shall keep this thread updated as and when things happen.
:beerchug:

[tumcakirm]

Hello,
I lately have had my A4's engine rebuilt with my expense. :(
No attention from Audi AG or Audi Turkey! 3 days ago I took the car from service after rebuild, in 2 weeks.
Now I prepared a campaign by a video below to protest the approach of Audi Turkey. They are still earning money due to their own manufacturing fault! Imagine that situation? The money they requested is not only the bare cost of rebuilt actions! This is bullst!
Here is the link of my video and campaign: AUDI'ye Protesto: Motor YaÄŸ Yakma Sorunu / Protesting AUDI: For Engine Oil Burning Issue - YouTube (https://youtu.be/YS5p9BzNJo8)

LG-D855 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi

[Tululah]

I bought my 2010 2.0TFSI Avant in April from an independent garage. It had 54k and full Audi service history. In May I noticed it had a drink problem; like a litre in 300miles!**
I put it in to Audi Hereford for the a service and oil consumption test. I started the test on a Thursday and called the the dealership late Friday to say I wasn't going to make it to Monday and still have oil in the engine. They fixed me up with 17plate A3 at short notice. It failed the test, and has continued to fail so they have taken it back in (2 weeks ago) for an engine rebuild, during which I have been tootling round in a 16plate A6. I am due to get it back later this week. All being done as a goodwill by Audi UK.

** The way it smokes after a long period on overrun and the wet, clean oil in the pipe between intercooler and inlet manifold suggest it's the turbo or turbo bearings gone. However who am I to turn down a free engine rebuild. And I have a warranty from the garage that covers turbo :-) :-)

[Crasher]

More like excessive blow by to me

[vwcabriolet1971]

Why would the conrods need replacing ?

[Crasher]

Why would the conrods need replacing ?

TPI 2026749/9 states that the pistons, rings and rods should be changed and the only explanation they give is "unfavorable tolerances on certain engine components"

[Rob69]

Would that be to do with using sintered rather than forged rods maybe ?

[Crasher]

They are still cracked cap sintered, you have to break the rod at the fracture point to use it.

[vwcabriolet1971]

Gee ! And I thought making conrods , pistons and rings was a well established process and proven well over 70 years ago ! How did they get it so wrong ? Doesn't say much for their quality control. This is not rocket science.

[Rob69]

I think at some point during the life of the PD engine they introduced sintered rods instead of forged, not sure if this is related to the big end bearing wear I've seen discussed here on the BXE and some other later PD engines
Gee ! And I thought making conrods , pistons and rings was a well established process and proven well over 70 years ago ! How did they get it so wrong ? Doesn't say much for their quality control. This is not rocket science.

[Crasher]

No it’s more difficult than rocket science and far far more expensive; they are trying to achieve the impossible with 150 year old technology to reduce Co2. The rings have become so thin now some thought it was impossible a few years ago, literally 0.8mm, 0.9mm and 2mm 1, 2 and oil respectively. Sintered rods are cheap, strong and highly accurate straight out of the mould BUT they are brittle, if the longlife oil change causes the oil film to break down, the con rod bearings wear. These are now steel/aluminium instead of lead coated which is great for wear rate BUT if they pick up on the crank they can make the rod snap as it is a force angle it is not designed to handle. Together with the huge pressures to reduce fuel consumption there is enormous pressure to drive down costs so that they can just make a profit, VW barley made a 1% margin on their cars until recently but it is now around 6% but this is less than the industry leader Toyota who are on 10% and even that is perilously thin. An eye opener is a book I am reading called Faster, Higher Farther by Jack Ewing. It details the ambitions of one of Ferdinand’s Porches grandsons to make VW the world’s largest car maker, a goal it reached just as their world fell apart. To get to this point they bet the farm on extreme platform sharing and diesel, they should have asked me 20 years ago and I would have told them the Devils own Urine was a stupid idea!

[Rob69]

Well said !!

[vwcabriolet1971]

When I was in the engineering business any significant change to a product design or method of manufacture was extensively life tested beyond the stresses normally experienced in normal use. This testing was expensive and did tend to delay introduction of changes to production but in the end was worth it. Even VW in the lathe 1930s employed a significant number of military drivers to drive about 30 beetles flat out for about 1 million miles to test the design and manufacturing processes of the beetle before committing the design to production Seems VAG are now taking short cuts.

[Tululah]

Talulah, my A4 Avant is having the engine rebuild done. When I was in the the dealers on Saturday; I asked if I could see her. The workshop was closed, but they have sent me a video.

28823 | AudiCam (https://audicam.audi.co.uk/customer/1328105/32c211b32a424242585c950ef7ed11ea/28823)

[vwcabriolet1971]

In my experience sintered parts are much weaker than solid forged steel parts ( especially for parts subjected to suddenly applied loads) or has the sintering process improved that much ?

[Tululah]

Sintering is always weaker, but it's cheaper and allows for the manufacture of complex shapes that can't be achieved by casting or forging. Sintering takes a powdered material (metal, but not always) places it in a mould, presses and heats it until the powder becomes a solid lump.

Forging is stronger because the crystaline structure of the metal is aligned with the direction of the loads and stresses. Look in any tuning mag and forged rods and pistons are some of the first things done to the engine (after remaps and intake/exhaust mods.)

[Gazwould]

No it’s more difficult than rocket science and far far more expensive; they are trying to achieve the impossible with 150 year old technology to reduce Co2. The rings have become so thin now some thought it was impossible a few years ago, literally 0.8mm, 0.9mm and 2mm 1, 2 and oil respectively. Sintered rods are cheap, strong and highly accurate straight out of the mould BUT they are brittle, if the longlife oil change causes the oil film to break down, the con rod bearings wear. These are now steel/aluminium instead of lead coated which is great for wear rate BUT if they pick up on the crank they can make the rod snap as it is a force angle it is not designed to handle. Together with the huge pressures to reduce fuel consumption there is enormous pressure to drive down costs so that they can just make a profit, VW barley made a 1% margin on their cars until recently but it is now around 6% but this is less than the industry leader Toyota who are on 10% and even that is perilously thin. An eye opener is a book I am reading called Faster, Higher Farther by Jack Ewing. It details the ambitions of one of Ferdinand’s Porches grandsons to make VW the world’s largest car maker, a goal it reached just as their world fell apart. To get to this point they bet the farm on extreme platform sharing and diesel, they should have asked me 20 years ago and I would have told them the Devils own Urine was a stupid idea!


Could be worse , better than having diesel engines running on heavy shipping oil .

[Crasher]

the design[/QUOTE]

Yes, the VW30 prototypes were tested by the SS, very thorough chaps apparently... VW, like all manufactures, test far more than that now, in all sorts of extreme situations. The oil burning issue isn't a design problem (ultra thin rings do work) or even really a quality control issue with bore finsh or pin bush cleareance, the reason is they HAVE to comply with regulations that have only one aim and they also made the choice to get rid of running in like all have done, citing that their tolerances are so high it is not necessary, which to some extent is true. Unfortunately sometimes these very thing rings will not bed in quickly on the initial oil fill so people add the normal full synthetic top up which makes the bores glaze and thats it, gave over.


Could be worse , better than having diesel engines running on heavy shipping oil .

Yes, the bunker oil used in the ships that move everything around the world, almost impossible to control.

[Tululah]

the design

Yes, the bunker oil used in the ships that move everything around the world, almost impossible to control.[/QUOTE]

Not so. There are emissions standards for ships. Especially those wanting to put into port in the EU.

[Crasher]

There are standards but they are weak and difficult to Police plus it's easy to cheat, the dual tank feed (one nice clean stuff, the other nasty) cheat gets around detection.