Looking for a vegetarian runner....

[footfistart]

Evening all. Not too sure if this is the right place to post this.

First off this is my first post on this forum and I have joined this forum as I will be changing cars in the future ahead.

I currently have a Ford Mondeo Titanium X Sport 2.2tdci which is of show car standard apart from a couple of niggles. I love it a lot but because I am wanting to buy my first house unfortunately the car has to go due to having hpi still on it and mortgage advisor said to have as little dept as possible. So needs must.

To try and save money and try to achieve more MPG I want to start running on a 50/50 or there abouts dino diesel and vegetable oil mix. I ha e read a fair few posts all over the place and they all point to the non-pd tdi or an sdi engine.

But as it seems information is never excellent and either things are missed or people just don't have a Scooby what they are talking about which why I have come here to try and get some reliable information.

So the car/s that I am after.

It needs to be an estate and obviously able to run on veggie stuff. Turbocharged preferred but not too fussed.
I don't mind if it's an Audi, vw, seat or skoda. Just as long as I can put veg in it that's all that matters.
Ideally needs to have an isofix or something so I can strap my kids in safely in their bases.

Now can someone also tell me/show me how to tell a non pd engine against a pd engine as I don't want to make the mistake and buy the wrong car as I won't be very happy. And what would be the best to go for. I'm not spending loads of money maybe 1500-2000.

My mate who I work with has an old Mercedes running veg/diesel with no problems but I'm after something that is as new as I can get it which I understand is about 2000/2001?

I hope someone can point me in the right direction and share some valuable information for not just myself but anyone else who is looking to do the same thing as I intend on doing.

All the best and hope to hear from you in the near future.

Ryan

[Rob69]

Hi Ryan.

A non-pd TDI or SDI engine has the injector pump and high pressure pipes going up to each injector. pd has none of that visible. Best take off the plastic engine cover to be sure, some non pd engines carried on in various VAG models after 2001, my FIL had a 03 fabia SDI.
How much do you think you can save by running on 50/50 mix ? my mental arithmetic reckons you'll pay around 90 pence per litre of 50/50, if you paid around 70 pence per litre for you cooking oil - saving maybe 20 odd pence per litre over pump price diesel. Is it worth the bother, with recently 'low' diesel prices and not likely to rise significantly in the short / medium term ?

I think your mate with his 'old' mercedes is a good example of the old diesel engines that could tolerate various quality fuels, I knew a bloke who ran a really old Peugeot on a mixture for years seemingly with no problems, you see how many old mercs and peugeots run around in north Africa and places on who knows what.
Of course folks up here with 'Isles cars' never run them on heating oil !!!

injection pressures were increased in more modern direct injection engines in order to give better combustion, economy and lower emissions, tolerances tightened in the pump and injectors and the lubrication provided by the diesel became even more critical to the injection equipment. on the exhaust side of things I would think that unless the engine is running at high load and full operating temperature for long periods the cooking oil will carbon up the exhaust system and turbo. especially when you consider the EGR system fitted to more modern diesels, which already gives them enough grief.
I personally think you are taking a big risk by running an unmodified diesel motor on a mixture, to save a bit cash at the pump - you're likely to end up with a non runner that is hardly worth re-engining. There is tons of info, misinformation and debate on the web, as you've already seen, and people saying they are running TDI's and pd's on veg oil. There may be others with other thoughts than mine, or personal experience of running on veg mixture, on the forum. Hopefully they will reply as well !

[zollaf]

a few facts. firstly i know all about veg oil as part of a business i am involved in. i own an audi 80 that has an elsbett conversion and runs veg oil just fine. a 1.9 pd engine with either a 2 tank conversion or a single tank elsbett kit will run just fine, starting from cold on veg oil. in fact, any diesel engine can run veg oil, even the more modern common rails. if it has a full dpf system then it can't run veg. if a car is properly converted then it won't cause any harm to the turbo or exhaust. if you want to run a 50/50 mix then i would advise against it without doing a conversion. this is when you get problems, using unheated thick oil. yes people do it and they run ok, and an old merc will have an inline pump thats lubricated by the sump oil so will tolerate veg just fine. but if you insist then get a pre pd engine and make sure its got a bosch pump on it. run 50 /50 in summer, and 25 % at other times. alternatively i have an elsbett kit sat her for sale that came off a golf 1.9 tdi year 2000, rotary pump engine, but will fit any vw or audi with a similar engine.

[Rob69]

Had a look at the Elsbett coversion systems, some good info there.
Zollaf, do you know why the older CAV, Lucas etc. pumps don't like veg oil but the Bosch are ok with it ?

[zollaf]

its just the way the pump is constructed inside. there is a shaft that shears in the lucas pumps, they go anyway on diesel but the thicker veg oil makes it worse. the will handle a twin tank kit as you then only use hot and thin oil. the bosch vp44 as found in the audi v6 diesels is the same inside as the lucas pump so no good for veg.
its the lift pump inside. the bosch one is much stronger..

[Rob69]

Right you are - I remember working on the CAV pumps off old Leyland engines years ago, and the shaft section where it went into the high pressure pumping and distributor head, seem to remember them seizing and snapping there occasionally.

[footfistart]

Right ok..... I've read a lot about people running various cars on veg but I am after a 50:50 mix. I would save 13 pounds per tank full and my other car costs around 35 pounds to fill up so for every three fill ups which would be about nine weeks worth I could fill up my run around petrol car. So I would feel the benefit in other ways. I don't want to run straight veg. Just a mixture. Getting a conversion kit will cost money. then installing it and start using veg. That would take sometime. Id rather get lpg if that was the only ever option which it isn't.

I'm not looking for arguments or a heated debate. Just for someone to say yeah get this or look at this :) I know it's a risk but its worth taking and having a few car mechanics in the family that will certainly help.

So what cars am I looking for really. I rather like the passats/golfs but I cannot find a good enough description of what a non pd engine looks like (with all plastics on). Is the oil dip stick in a different place?

I know people will say why bother as fuel prices are low. I see the point but I can get veg for around 60p per litre (fresh) and fuel being at least 1.07 that's a fair saving. Even when mixed 50:50 obviously the bigger the fuel usage the more I'd save.

Many Thanks

Ryan

[zollaf]

you want an engine with a rotary pump , so look for an injection pump with 4 pipes going to 4 injectors. a pd engine has none of these.

2874428745first is pd, not big plastic cam cover. 2nd is rotary pump.

[footfistart]

Thank you! This is exactly what I have been looking for. So one of the main differences is that in general the air intake is on the left hand side as you look at it and also what looks like a long drive belt cover on the same side also right?

What cars where these engines you put up from?

From looking around there isn't much non pd at the moment but there's a fair few Audis ie a6 1.9tdi registered before 2000 but not sure if they had the same engine. I roughly know the power I'll need either a 90 or a 110. I take it they didn't do pd versions of these power ratings?

Many thanks for this. Much appreciated.

Ryan

[zollaf]

indeed, all the rotarys are 90 or 110. personally i would look for an a4, pre 2003 ish, with an afn. in this the engine is front to rear, but still looks the same as the pics, just 90 degrees out. afn is 110 bhp and about the best diesel engine ever made in one of the best cars ever made.

[footfistart]

I have seen a few front to back engines. I'll keep a closer eye out for one. Ill also try and get a 110bhp. Where would the engine code be so I could tell if it's a afn engine?

Many Thanks

Ryan

[zollaf]

open boot, lift carpet and you will find a label with all the codes on it. this label is also in the service book, plus the engine code can be found on the timing bet cover.
it was fitted to the a4 called a b5 and a b5.5, so 1995 until 2002 or 3

[footfistart]

That's great to hear. There isn't many about. Just been looking. I take it skoda had this same engine also right?
Many Thanks
Ryan

[zollaf]

don't know if the afn made it into a skoda, but other rotaries certainly did.

[footfistart]

Rotary as in fuel pump wise? I know Bosch pumps are generally the best for the application I intend to do. This is why I was asking about other vehicles with the same engines or at least same pump type.

Ryan

[zollaf]

yes, rotary pump as opposed to pd. bosch are indeed the best choice, only choice really. they are fitted to all the vag range, although some early skodas had a cav.

[footfistart]

Ok that's good so I still have a fairly wide range to choose from just as long as it's a Bosch and have 90-110bhp tdi wise or a sdi.

Don't really know much about Sdi and veg running. Same principle pump wise I take it and main difference it doesn't have a turbo.

[zollaf]

sdi is god awful underpowered engine.. don't get one.

[footfistart]

Oh yeah they are. Just been looking at some tech specs.

A tdi it shall be. So from what I have been searching it's either a
Skoda Octavia, Audi a4, vw passat/golf.

Should be to hard right :)

Many Thanks for your help.

Ryan

[zollaf]

1997 AUDI A4 1.9 TDI QUATTRO SILVER | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1997-AUDI-A4-1-9-TDI-QUATTRO-SILVER-/262041426988?hash=item3d02e2dc2c)
just the job, and its quattro

[footfistart]

Possibly going to see an Audi A4 1.9tdi 110 Avent. It's got just over 200k. Engine code is an afn so should be good for my requirements.

Anything I should look out for?

Many Thanks

Ryan


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