A1 Handbrake failure

[Hondindi]

My brand new (4 weeks old) A1 was parked quite nicely on my drive, which is on a slight incline.

About 15 minutes later, I hear a loud bang, followed by the sound of the car's alarm. Come out to find said A1 10 feet further down the drive having hit two wheelie bins and resting against the wall (Scuffed bumper). Unlocked the car to find the handbrake still fully applied !!. Following a bit of research on the internet, I find that this is not an isolated incident.

Took the car straight back to the dealer who relieved me of £20k for my new 'Premium Brand Motor Car' - His words - to be told that they had NEVER heard of this happening before, but 'Did you park the car in gear, as the handbook says?. You should ALWAYS park the car in gear - ALWAYS', well, obviously not, otherwise it wouldn't have rolled !!.

Dealer takes the car into the workshop, puts it on a rolling road and does an MOT type test on the brakes - 'Nothing wrong with it Sir!!' Technician brings the car back, and leaves it neutral !! When I queried this he said ' Errrm, well, it's not on an incline is it??' What happened to the ALWAYS stick you just beat me with ??.

Anyway, dealer has agreed to repair the damage as a 'good will gesture', but maintains there's nothing wrong with my brakes. As I said, having researched the problem, it's obvious that I've been the victim of the discs shrinking when they cooled down, but I'm absolutely gobsmacked that such a fundamental Safety defect can be allowed to go un-rectified. had my car been parked in a busy shopping area, it could have resulted in a fatality, and Audi would have relinquished responsibility by stating that the hand book says to park it in gear (although that is classed as a mere 'Caution' in the book as opposed to a 'Warning'.

If it's THAT important to always park the car in gear, then they should provide an audible warning to alert the driver. This is my first Audi, it won't be a long association and it will DEFINATELY be the last...:zx11:..... OK, rant over..... Can anyone tell me whether Audi have ever owned up to this before, and if so, what have they done about it ??

[Hondindi]

Oops, obviously not allowed to say ******* !! - but he did steal my money in my opinion

[Guest 2]

Welcome to VWAF

Do you have any evidence (any other internet threads etc) of the other incidents?

[Hondindi]

A6 Chris - All you need to do is put 'Audi handbrake failure' in google, and comes up with several instances of A3's and A1's having the same problem, also, if you substitute Audi for Seat, Skoda, etc. it seems to be an Audi/VW group problem, and other people who've complained have been batted off with the entry in the handbook about leaving the car in gear !!

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/39469/audi-a1-handbrake-failure ......The Audi A1 Forum • View topic - A1 handbrake problems? (http://www.a1-forum.co.uk/a1forum/viewtopic.php?t=9858&p=73603) there's just two that took 1 search to find... there are many more

[Kar Krazy]

Ford issues its dealers with a set of Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) covering known faults and how to fix them. I expect that Audi have something similar.

You need to find out if there is a TSB for this handbrake fault, get a copy and show it to your arrogant dealer. Watch his face as he reads it! Hopefully someone on here can help with this.

My last Mondeo suffered from the dreaded rear bumper droop that only affected the top models, ST's and Titanium X's. You should have seen the dealer's face when I showed him a copy of the TSB! He asked how I got hold of it, and I said, "Have you heard of something called the internet?"

[Hondindi]

Just got off the phone with Audi UK - "We know there's a problem, VOSA aren't forcing us to change it, so you'll just have to remember to park it in gear" !! ABSOLUTELY GOBSMACKED - A1 going ASAP - I WILL NEVER buy another Audi - Vorsprung Durch Stick it up your <removed>

[Hex69]

I'm sorry to say this, but you should always put the handbrake on AND park the car in gear, no matter what the car is. I was taught this as part of learning to drive 20+ years ago.

It's not restricted to A1s or indeed to Audis, it's simply a matter of physics, hot metal expands then cools and shrinks, thus separating the pads and the rear disks allowing the car to move if on an incline.

You've done well to get Audi to pay for the damage, put it down to experience and move on.

[Hex69]

From the highway code

252

Parking on hills. If you park on a hill you should

park close to the kerb and apply the handbrake firmly
select a forward gear and turn your steering wheel away from the kerb when facing uphill
select reverse gear and turn your steering wheel towards the kerb when facing downhill
use ‘park’ if your car has an automatic gearbox.

[Sam]

Citizens Advice - The car you bought is faulty (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_cars_and_other_vehicles_e/consumer_problems_with_the_car_you_bought_e/the_car_you_bought_is_faulty.htm)

Have a read of that. If you feel so strongly that the car you purchased was faulty at the time of purchase, you may well have a case.

Good luck.

[zollaf]

many cars throughout the ages have had this thing where the brakes get hot and then shrink. many french cars and italian cars where the handbrake acts on the front wheels suffer from it, so your audi is not the first and not the last. however hex has the perfect answer. its in the highway code and if you havn't bothered to read that then it is not audi's fault, is it. this is a very basic fundamental part of driving and if the car had rolled down a slope and killed someone then you would be the one to blame for not following the highway code. at some point we are all responsible for our own actions.

[Kar Krazy]

Citroen had the same problem with one of their models and it got into the media. Their answer was to recall all of that model and file off the bottom notch of the handbrake ratchet, so the driver was forced to pull the handbrake on harder.

This must have been over 10 years ago. It's just unacceptable that manufacturers, especially those who charge as much as Audi do, still design and build handbrakes with a notch that is going to set up this situation.

I have had Fords for my last 5 cars and they all hold the car on any hill on the third notch. Why have the first 2 notches?

I queried that my A3 requires 5 notches to hold normally and 6 on a steep hill. The Audi dealer told me this is normal. So why have the first 4 notches? What happened to the technik in "Vorsprung duch technik"?

Having said that, the fact that the dealer agreed to repair the damage free of charge is a lot better than you would get in a Ford dealership.

[Hondindi]

It's all well and good to quote the Highway Code, but as far as I'm aware, I wouldn't get my collar felt for not leaving my car in gear !! my main point is, if there's an Engineered solution available to prevent a potential fatality, then Audi, as a Premium Brand, responsible manufacturer should employ some of their 'Technic' to ensure that either the handbrake can't fail due to Physics (cooling down), or that they provide some form of warning to alert the driver to the fact that the vehicle is not in gear. After all, what's the point of having a handbrake if it can only be relied on for 15 minutes until it cools down ??. Audi's response ??? No one's forcing us to do anything about it - so why should we ?? !!!

[zollaf]

so you cannot follow simple basic instructions laid down in the booklet that tells you all about driving ? why not. why do you need a warning device to alert you. do you need a bleeper in your bathroom to alert you to the fact you havn't wiped ?
it is your responsibility to park your car properly.
grow a pair, man up, read the highway code and do what it tells you, or sell your car and get a taxi.

[Hondindi]

Wow Zollaf, you appear to display the same degree of arrogance as Audi. You still appear to be missing my point though....... Why should I be happy to pay £20k for a product, part of which can not be relied upon to perform it's design function for longer than 15 minutes?

[Kar Krazy]

I always leave the car in gear whether on a slope or not, with the result that my daughter started her car one day and hit our garage door. Yes, it's her fault for not checking that it was in neutral and/or not depressing the clutch before starting the engine, but to this day she, her sister and her mum blame me. Whenever I move my wife's car, she reminds me not to leave it in gear.

But the fact remains that car manufacturers still fit handbrakes with extra notches whose sole purpose seems to be to fool the driver with the old "cooling discs" trick, and this is totally unacceptable.

Every now and then someone is going to fall foul of this. I would expect it of Trabant, but not of Audi. What exactly does the term "premium car manufacturer" mean otherwise?

[zollaf]

Wow Zollaf, you appear to display the same degree of arrogance as Audi. You still appear to be missing my point though....... Why should I be happy to pay £20k for a product, part of which can not be relied upon to perform it's design function for longer than 15 minutes?
no, i just live in this world and not a fantasy land.
it is a fact that things expand when they get hot and contract as they cool. it is a fact that brakes get hot when you use them. do the sums, its not rocket science. the fact still remains, why do you think you are eligible for exemption from the highway code ? why does someone else have to be held accountable for your inability to follow a simple instruction.only when you can answer that will you realise that there is nothing at all wrong with your handbrake.

[Sam]

Wow Zollaf, you appear to display the same degree of arrogance as Audi. You still appear to be missing my point though....... Why should I be happy to pay £20k for a product, part of which can not be relied upon to perform it's design function for longer than 15 minutes?

From a 6k Korean special to a 250k supercar, the simple physics is the same regardless of the cost of the product. Metal expands and contracts.

It happened on Mrs mycarsavw's Ibiza - £3.5k later she got the car back. She learned and moved on.

[Kar Krazy]

Wow, this thread is getting so hot I think I can see it expanding!

[Hex69]

The issue is, is that no manufacturer, beyond SAAB, has a solution to this issue, premium or non-premium.

SAAB's solution was an interlock on the ignition, thus the key could only be removed if the car was in reverse.

[Hondindi]

OK Zollaf - I'm a dipstick, and I'll never do it again !! I also, fully understand the physics involved, but thanks for putting it in simple terms for me. But, the fact still remains that Audi still supply a vehicle which has a hanbrake that has a tendancy to become useless once it cools, surely you must agree that that isn't acceptable from a Premium Brand Manufacturer ?

[Kar Krazy]

Citroen recalled the cars and filed off the first notch of the handbrake ratchet. Why was it there in the first place? If there wasn't a "gotcha" notch on the ratchet in the first place, the problem wouldn't have existed.

[zollaf]

saabs is a good solution to the problem.
it does overcome the operators inability to read the highway code or vehicle handbook.

[zollaf]

OK Zollaf - I'm a dipstick, and I'll never do it again !! I also, fully understand the physics involved, but thanks for putting it in simple terms for me. But, the fact still remains that Audi still supply a vehicle which has a hanbrake that has a tendancy to become useless once it cools, surely you must agree that that isn't acceptable from a Premium Brand Manufacturer ?

good, i am glad you can admit it. lesson learned.
no, its not unacceptable its just a fact of life.

[Hondindi]

The issue is, is that no manufacturer, beyond SAAB, has a solution to this issue, premium or non-premium.

SAAB's solution was an interlock on the ignition, thus the key could only be removed if the car was in reverse.

That's what I was talking about - An Engineered Solution - So why not Audi ?

[zollaf]

because not everyone wants to drive a saab. some people are able to take control of their lives and do as they wish, not have a car do it all for them in the name of 'safety'. 99 % of the population are able to place the gearstick in a gear before getting out. i was taught this whilst learning to drive. if you are unable to do that, buy a saab. however if you are a free thinker and enjoy life, buy anything but a saab, just remember to pop it into gear before getting out.

[Hondindi]

I wonder why MOT testers test the handbrake when it's obviously surplus to requirements, maybe they should just test the owners knowledge of the highway code !! :p

[zollaf]

how else would you do a hill start without a handbrake ?
the handbrake is a very useful design feature of any automobile. it serves a purpose and makes driving easier. if you don't know what its use is then i suggest you read the highway code or take some further driving lessons.
possible the IAM would be a suitable place to look.

[Hex69]

The handbrake performs a number of functions, beyond holding the car when parked.

1. As an emergency brake if the main hydraulic brakes fail.
2. To hold the car temporarily, for example at traffic lights, as so not to dazzle drivers behind with your brake lights.
3. To hold the car on an incline when setting off in a manual, as people obviously don't have 3 feet.

Therefore it's tested for #1 in the MOT.

[Sam]

The handbrake performs a number of functions, beyond holding the car when parked.

1. As an emergency brake if the main hydraulic brakes fail.
2. To hold the car temporarily, for example at traffic lights, as so not to dazzle drivers behind with you brake lights.
3. To hold the car on an incline when setting off in a manual, as people obviously don't have 3 feet.

Therefore it's tested for #1 in the MOT.

4. Handbrake turns to impress the womens/mens

[Hondindi]

OK, my bad, was just being fecitious !! But ONE of the design functions is to HOLD THE CAR WHEN PARKED and mine doesn't for longer than 15 minutes, that's what I'm trying to get accross. I fully understand the physics involved. I fully understand that if I leave my car in gear it will mitigate the consequences of the handbrake failing. But the fact remains that Audi - amongst others - are unwilling to design a handbrake which will hold because they don't need to !! Many other manufacturers utilise handbrakes that don't fail. All I'm saying is that I'm dissapointed that the vehicle I bought, which was sold to me with an attitude bordering on arrogance as a 'Premium Brand' has a handbrake that doesn't continue to perform it's design function once it has cooled, and the manufacturer doesn't care.

[Sam]

It can (and does) happen on all brands, premium, luxury, or other.

Search for "handbrake failure" using your favourite search engine and see for yourself.

It's not an Audi premium feature :D

[Hondindi]

ALL brands ? Mmm that's quite a statement....I haven't got time to search that long - This particular failure mechanism only occurs where the normal driving brakes and the handbrake utilise the same disc and pads. Where the handbrake utilises seperate shoes acting on a drum, the braking force would increase as the disc/drum contracts. This is the first car I've owned in 30 yrs of motoring where I don't trust the handbrake once it has held (and I've driven some rubbish in my time).

[Hondindi]

no, i just live in this world and not a fantasy land.
it is a fact that things expand when they get hot and contract as they cool. it is a fact that brakes get hot when you use them. do the sums, its not rocket science. the fact still remains, why do you think you are eligible for exemption from the highway code ? why does someone else have to be held accountable for your inability to follow a simple instruction.only when you can answer that will you realise that there is nothing at all wrong with your handbrake.
Dear Zollaf - That'll be this world where oil doesn't get black, this fantasy land where carbon deposits in the oil are a 'bad' thing ?? Not rocket science, just plain science. Oh, and just for information... I DO always park in gear, I was 'protecting' Mrs Hondindi. But I still think it's not unreasonable to expect a handbrake to remain effective once it has been applied. While I'm 'on one' The highway code uses the word 'should' when referring to leaving the car in gear on a hill, not MUST, which is used elsewhere in the document to indicate a 'requirement' i.e. only advice, not a requirement. You mentioned I.A.M... I am a member of said institute, as well as being a fully qualified Emergency Vehicle Advanced Driver !! If you are prepared to accept sub standard workmanship or materials when spending your hard earned, then that's up to you, but I work damn hard for my money, and expect value for that money when it's spent.

[Kar Krazy]

Hondini's right, it doesn't happen on cars with rear drum brakes, because when the drum cools, it contracts harder against the friction material on the brake pads (called brake shoes in a drum brake). So here's an idea:-

A hybrid rear brake disc with a cylindrical flange on its inner face could give the stopping power of a disc with the hill-holding power of a drum, with the hub fitted with a set of outward-operating brake shoes mounted on a backplate. Imagine a drum brake with its front face extended to become the disc rotor. Job done! Everybody happy!

Now all we need is a heated front screen for those frosty mornings that are just around the corner!

[Kar Krazy]

I DO always park in gear, I was 'protecting' Mrs Hondindi.

I did wonder if this was the case. Some women do apply a feather-light touch to the controls, others have to take the car back to have the handbrake lever welded back on!

Clearly your missus is in the first category.

Does she start the engine as soon as she gets in the car and before she's really ready to drive off, like both my daughters? If so, then you leaving her car in gear would contribute to a far worse accident, as my daughter's experience proved!

I think one or two people on this thread owe you an apology...

[Hondindi]

I
Does she start the engine as soon as she gets in the car and before she's really ready to drive off, like both my daughters? If so, then you leaving her car in gear would contribute to a far worse accident, as my daughter's experience proved!

I think one or two people on this thread owe you an apology...

Wouldn't be a problem on the A1 as it happens, it won't start without the clutch depressed. I think that Audi are a bit cheeky spouting on about Vorsprung Durch Technik, (Progress through technology), when this design of rear brakes is actually a backward step. I believe that Engineers should strive to make things better, safer, easier. There are engineered solutions to this problem, that's all I've been saying. Where Safety is an issue, then Engineers should always strive to take the human out of the equation.

[zollaf]

why ? why not educate the human and teach them how to be safe. cars have all sorts of 'safety features', abs, esp, airbags, etc......yet people still die in cars. why ? because they are either stupid or rely on the safety features too much. remove the lot and fit a large steel spike to the steering wheel, only then will people stop dieing on the roads.

[Hondindi]

why ? why not educate the human and teach them how to be safe. cars have all sorts of 'safety features', abs, esp, airbags, etc......yet people still die in cars. why ? because they are either stupid or rely on the safety features too much. remove the lot and fit a large steel spike to the steering wheel, only then will people stop dieing on the roads.

Your level of stubbornness and ignorance is overwhelming. Let's hope you never need to rely on one of the aforementioned safety features. If you want to live - or die - in the dark ages, that's your prerogative, but I think most sane minded people welcome any and all features that can and will make motoring safer.

[Doctle Odd]

Some Mercs and Beemers had disc "stopping" brakes and drum "parking brakes" You could invest in chocks there's a guy on eBay selling ex-MOD ones for 15 quid a pop

[zollaf]

Your level of stubbornness and ignorance is overwhelming. Let's hope you never need to rely on one of the aforementioned safety features. If you want to live - or die - in the dark ages, that's your prerogative, but I think most sane minded people welcome any and all features that can and will make motoring safer.
the only way to make motoring safe is to remove the driver and replace him/her with a computer. this takes the enjoyment away from driving. what i welcome is a culling of all dumb people so the intelligent can once again enjoy the roads in peace. is that too much to ask.

[zollaf]

Your level of stubbornness and ignorance is overwhelming.
thanks, its taken me a lifetime to accomplish this.

[Doctle Odd]

I was kind of enjoying this thread and the sludge one however resorting to insulting people is not acceptable. I have concluded both these guys are either taxi drivers or women. In my experience 2 types of people that know everything
thanks, its taken me a lifetime to accomplish this.

[minto031]

i have to agree with hondindi again , a top end car should have a better handbrake . ive owned several cars with discs all around the last being a alfa 147 and never have i had a problem when the discs cool down and the handbrake failing , i did however have a vw van when i worked for the AA and the handbrake did fail , but this was put down to weight in the van , the solution was to press the footbrake hard before applying the handbrake . again not how a 30 grand van should be . my point is i do think manufacturers should be doing something about this regardless of what the highway code says .

[Kar Krazy]

fit a large steel spike to the steering wheel


Hang on, my "Clarkson Detector" has just started beeping! :biglaugh:



thanks, its taken me a lifetime to accomplish this.

Hey Hondindi, have a laugh - I reckon Zollaf's saying all this with tongue firmly in cheek!

Oh, you are - you posted below just before my edit happened!

[Hondindi]

I was kind of enjoying this thread and the sludge one however resorting to insulting people is not acceptable. I have concluded both these guys are either taxi drivers or women. In my experience 2 types of people that know everything

Well I don't have breasts... So where can I take you ??:p

[zollaf]

worked for the AA and the handbrake did fail .
i had a sharan when i worked for the AA and the brakes worked just fine on that.

[Sam]

Hondini's right, it doesn't happen on cars with rear drum brakes, because when the drum cools, it contracts harder against the friction material on the brake pads (called brake shoes in a drum brake). So here's an idea:-

A hybrid rear brake disc with a cylindrical flange on its inner face could give the stopping power of a disc with the hill-holding power of a drum, with the hub fitted with a set of outward-operating brake shoes mounted on a backplate. Imagine a drum brake with its front face extended to become the disc rotor. Job done! Everybody happy!

Now all we need is a heated front screen for those frosty mornings that are just around the corner!

Mrs mycarsavw's Ibiza has rear drum brakes. It happened.

[CraigG86]

Just to throw this into the mix...

I'm a member of the IAM, and I'm also on the blue light driving register, and I've never once been told it's compulsory to leave a vehicle in gear when parked. It's advisory to when parked on a hill, but not a necessity.

[Phutters]

Just to throw this into the mix...

I'm a member of the IAM, and I'm also on the blue light driving register, and I've never once been told it's compulsory to leave a vehicle in gear when parked. It's advisory to when parked on a hill, but not a necessity.It doesn't really matter whether it's advisable or compulsory.

I'm not a member of the IAM, I'm not on a blue light driving register and in general tend not to regard myself as an expert in much of anything.

It doesn't stop me from thinking that sometimes common sense is a far more useful qualification than any string of capitals.

[CraigG86]

About half of our fleet are Fiat Ducato's with a semi auto box... These don't have a park gear, how would you leave this? In neutral or in gear that is still in neutral until the accelerator is pressed? I'm not trying to be cynical, I just think that leaving your car in gear while it's parked is not a thing that 90% of people do, and I'd be appalled if it was my car that decided to roll down a driveway.

[Doctle Odd]

Old school technology can help

22982

[green A8]

At one point Golf GTI's were well known for suffering this very same problem. Two of our company Golfs departed their keepers driveway backwards shortly after a motorway dash home, no damage was inflicted on either car but in both cases a mighty row ensued, in the end the Golfs were replaced by SAAB's. I would have thought that VAG would have fixed the problem by now though.

As my cars an auto I have no choice but to select 'park' (if I wish to remove the key) I have to admit though that I never trust the handbrake on any car with rear discs, unless they have a fully seperate parking brake system fitted as SAAB and Mercedes used to do. Even then I'd still leave the car 'in cog' incline or not.

[NHN]

TBH there is a solution to this issue & tbh the cars already have the capability to deal with this type of issue.

There are abs sensors on each wheel, they measure movement already, they should change firmware on modules with e-brakes that monitor for movement when car is parked/locked up & if it detects movement it signals the electric brake to wind tighter, it really is fairly simple for them to do, although there would need to be a test for current draw for the systems to be active, but its certainly a way forward IMHO & in situations like this would of helped allot.