Pros & Cons of the 2.0L & 2.5L TDI

[Smiley69]

Guys, I'm looking at buying an A4 TDI convertible for the wife. However in our price range is a mix of the 3.0L, 2.5L and 2.0L TDIs. I've eliminated the 3.0L for her but wondered what the forum's thoughts on the 2.0L & 2.5L engines might be. All views and experience will be gratefully received.

[adamss24]

2.0 and 3.0 tdi are more modern engines with supposedly good fuel economy but crippled with emission restrictions and not as reliable as people think: google balancer shaft, oil pump, cam chain tensioners, intake manifolds, etc.
The 2.5 tdi is a good engine especially as you will get the BDG 163Bhp engine, sadly it's only available in FWD guise ! Having built a few high powered 2.5 tdi engines you can tell i am a little biased but they are really good engines with the same structure as the 3.0 tdi, sadly they are only let down by restrictions built in the injector pump- easily overcome'd by fitting larger nozzles and a good custom tune !

[Crasher]

The 2.5 TDI is a lovely gutsy engine with a hard and business like sound BUT they are prone to reliability problems and the repair costs can be simply staggering. It is not difficult for a simple failure like the distributor pump to make a car uneconomically repairable.

[adamss24]

As above pointed by Crasher, i would shop around, places like PB Asher, BBA Reman or DieselBob rebuild these type of pumps to "as new" for about £700 and they are using virgin ecu's from Bosch. Other than the hollow cam issue there's really not much happening to the engine mechanically wise ! Cambelt is rather expensive but it needs replacing every 60k or 5 years...

The 2.0 tdi has a clutch on the limit of torque so with a remap they will slip,DMF flywheels are also unreliable, egr valves are quite common failures and also injectors can go wrong- not much of an issue anymore as they are replaced by Audi free of charge !

The 3.0 tdi also have issues with injectors and they cost best part of £1500 to put right ! EGR valves also fail and the biggest issue with them is the flaps in the inlet manifolds- you can get re-engineered ones from Germany which have the issues sorted for about £350

[gupsterg]

in our price range is a mix of the 3.0L, 2.5L and 2.0L TDIs. I've eliminated the 3.0L for her but wondered what the forum's thoughts on the 2.0L & 2.5L engines might be

Hi Smiley69,

I'm an owner of a 2005 A6 Avant V6 3.0 TDi, it was relatively low miles@purchase (70k). I've had major headaches with it, some other owners have not and they have even earlier production car's and higher miles. So I guess it's luck of the draw :confused: ...

I've been rooting around a few times when some big bills have hit to see if swapping to another car within the VAG range would be better but I found all have a weakness of some sort :confused: ...

I've stuck with mine due to the level of work I've done and had done and that nothing else ticks my car requirement boxes yet!

Used car prices can be so appealing on them but the repair bills can be £££. So as long as you have that in mind and some spare £££ if it goes a bit pear shaped you should be ok :Blush: ...

I'd start researching the faults which could occur on (x) engine type your considering, then decide if you are willing to buy and if worst happens you can pay/live with it :Blush2: ...

Good luck and happy VAG searching ;) ...

Regards
G

[Brodster]

Does this not apply to any car of any marques. Some run without any problems and some are dogged with problems....thats just the luck of the draw. Audis aren't that expensive to repair either if you know where to go for your parts. I have had 4 Audis.....x2 TDI's which were both remapped and had one with a new turbo which was covered under the warranty. The other 2 have been S3's and both have been amazing cars and relatively cheap to run and maintain. If anything goes wrong mate check out the sponsors for deals.........I have contacts all over so can give you good discounts.

[Crasher]

if you know where to go for your parts.

Taking one of the cars in the original question, would you describe an AKE with four eaten cams, multiple sideways thrown followers and chewed valve stem tops as well as it needing two new oil retention valves at the same time which means removing the turbo as well as being cheap to repair?

[Brodster]

The 2.0 tdi has a clutch on the limit of torque so with a remap they will slip

Never heard of anything so untrue in all my life!! Can I ask how you come to this staggering assumption because if this was true NO tuning company would release a remap that would be detrimental to the health of the car. The 2.0 140 TDI engine clutch is safe up to 180bhp with its additional torque and the 170TDI up to 200bhp. Endless hours of testing are carried out to ensure that any companies remaps are safe. Its not the remap that would kill a clutch anyway.......its the owners style of driving.

It took Shark Performance months to design and release their remap with the Continental PCR2.1 ECU on 1.6TDI engines. They achieved excellent figures without compromising or removing any of the ECU's safety features so you can be sure that Sharks software is the safest and smoothest around without having to modify your car to compliment it.

Out of all the 2.0TDI cars I have remapped (including Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda) I have never known one to eat its clutch due to the extra power. I have a customer who owns the 211bhp petrol A4 2.0TFSI which now runs 305bhp with Forge FMIC and DV. This work was done over a year ago and its still going strong on the original clutch..........and the diesel clutches are more heavy duty to cope with the extra torque.

[gupsterg]

Does this not apply to any car of any marques. Some run without any problems and some are dogged with problems....
I agree :) ... my comment was not in anyway to suggest VAG were worse than any other marque and really can't comment if they are any better ...

I've only owned 5 VAG's vs 5 other brands, these cars had differing engines/tyres/etc, etc so when not comparing 'apples to apples' not a fair comparison ... VAG have cost more in upkeep though in my experience and if I didn't like VAG I'd not buy them ...


thats just the luck of the draw. Audis aren't that expensive to repair either if you know where to go for your parts. I have had 4 Audis.....x2 TDI's which were both remapped and had one with a new turbo which was covered under the warranty.

My post 5 I tried to keep my own bad experience out of it :Blush2: but as you have shared your thoughts I will expand on mine ...

I paid £10k for a pretty nice spec of an A6 Avant quattro V6 3.0 TDi 2005/55 with 70k miles in Aug 11, FASH ...

£2.2K chain rattle fix@indi, £1.3K DIY home install of 6x injectors and they were brand new not recon got for £150 a piece after a lot of rooting around ...
Throttle body went, just for part@dealer=£340, after a lot of ringing around new genuine VDO one for £250@indi ... gearbox rear output seal leaking + c-links £460@Audi ...

To save £££ done DIY full services at home, all pads/discs@home, other little bits like glow plugs ... parts/fluids sourced from cheapest source always but genuine or genuine parts maker parts used from either ECP (when running 40-50% discounts) or ebay or another source ... I even went to the extent of buying partworn goodyears with 7mm of tread for £30 a piece...

Even with so much bargain hunting and DIY I've spent £6.3K in 22Mths/15k miles (exec.fuel/Ins/RT)...

Above figure not include 3x full interior removal, 1st was when rear washer system leaked flooding interior, 2nd was where I thought it was me not having fully dried interior from 1st instance little did I know that it was another different issue which I then fixed on the 3rd time and this flooding of interior which occurs even if your plenum drains are clear and rear washer system is leak free has occurred on 3x other members now!

Above figure not include the 2x refurbishment I did of the rear wiper motor @ home ...


The other 2 have been S3's and both have been amazing cars and relatively cheap to run and maintain.

I think my car has nice features and desirable but I'm afraid relatively cheap if things don't go wrong IMO :Blush2: ...


If anything goes wrong mate check out the sponsors for deals.........I have contacts all over so can give you good discounts.
I hope things don't go pear shape on me again but trust me you'll be the first person I'll be getting a quote from :), I hope you don't take this the wrong way :) ... if you have some spare time I can email you some scans of invoices from the 40+ I have to see if you could have saved me a few bob :) ...

[Brodster]

WOW..........that's alot of stuff gone wrong in a very short period of time mate....I can sympathise with you on that. I hope the experience hasn't put you off as the 3.0TDI is an awesome car especially after its been remapped right if you decide to go down that wrong also.

I get queries all the time from people asking for bits. Now if I can save them some cash then I will but if I cannot then I will try to put them in the direction of people that can. Thats how I like to do business as I have been ripped off on numerous ocassions when trying to find parts so when I left the RAF last year I decided to set up my own motorsport company - BroTek so I could assist others.......and its getting there.

[Crasher]

Thats how I like to do business as I have been ripped off on numerous ocassions when trying to find parts so when I left the RAF last year I decided to set up my own motorsport company - BroTek so I could assist others.......and its getting there.

I have the same philosophy and have had for the last 30 years in the business but no matter how hard you try and what you do you will still get people accuse you of ripping them off. It will happen to you sooner or later and believe me, when you are working 72 hours a week hardly making enough money to put the calories in your moth to allow you to do those 72 hours, that accusation hurts like hell and you never forget that pain...

[Brodster]

I've already had it mate so I know what people are like. This guy is Turkish and has a dad that buys him everything he wants so when he came to me for a Loba HPFP for his 2012 S3 (24 YR OLD) and was told the price he winged as I had put the 9% tax on it from Germany as thats where it was coming from. If I have to pay then it will be included in the price somewhere. He then went to another company that charged him £15 more than me and he slagged me off on ASN for trying to scam him..........hahahahaha. People like that are put on this planet just so that everyone else can feel better about themselves.

[gupsterg]

WOW..........that's alot of stuff gone wrong in a very short period of time mate....I can sympathise with you on that. I hope the experience hasn't put you off as the 3.0TDI is an awesome car especially after its been remapped right if you decide to go down that wrong also.

Sorry for being full on :o ... I actually spent 2hrs+ ish test driving and checking car and still end up with a lemon :boggled: ... I was firstly fortunate to afford the £££ required to keep it, secondly that great on-line support from members and great mechanical posters like Crasher & A8 Tech were there to provide info and save a lot of £££ :) ...

I was getting silly P/X prices when trying to off load it before getting chain rattle fixed, that was the first big out lay and then the rest happened later :( ...
I don't know if I was getting low prices due it being a 3.0 TDi or the noise the guys would here at start up from chain rattle :( ...

I've only got the intake/EGR to clean due to a fault sending air mass out (:Blush2:) which in turn causes idle/rev hunt ...
I've now built so much experience with the car and done so much that I think I've got to own it till the wheels fall off! LOL :) ...

I post what happened not to scare people or make VAG look bad vs (x) just to prepare people that the used car price can easily be eclipsed by some faults ...

[Smiley69]

Afternoon Guys, thought I'd interject into my post by firstly saying thanks for sharing your info and experience, albeit maybe a bit too much at times!!! I guess I was hoping for a definitive answer to my question, however, as described above it can quite often come down to the luck of the draw with a second hand car due to the lack of concrete knowledge of the car's individual history. I'll just keep scouring the various websites and hopefully find a car that ticks as many positive boxes as possible. On a massive positive note from what I've read from you all, I'm encouraged by the abundance of enthusiasm shown by all wrt VWs & Audis. On a completely different note, for some reason on this forum the use of my "enter" button to allow me to start another paragraph appears to be non functioning! Any ideas?

[Smiley69]

I get queries all the time from people asking for bits. Now if I can save them some cash then I will but if I cannot then I will try to put them in the direction of people that can. Thats how I like to do business as I have been ripped off on numerous ocassions when trying to find parts so when I left the RAF last year I decided to set up my own motorsport company - BroTek so I could assist others.......and its getting there.

All was going well till I read you're Ex-RAF!!!!! :beerchug: Only joking, I've just left the RN (Senior Service) at the end of Apr this year. Glad to hear you've made a go of your own business, good luck with the future.

[Sam]

Return Key / Enter Key / Carriage Return not working (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?144347-Return-Key-Enter-Key-Carriage-Return-not-working)

[gupsterg]

@Smiley69

Another thing I learned after buying was that 'LongLife' servicing regime should only be done if car is being driven m-way, otherwise harmful ...

I don't know when it was introduced or which engines it is applied to but AFAIK if a car his been drive in town and kept on LL then walk away ...

I have also read info by experienced motor trades people that even LL on m-way not good so again research and decide ...

[Brodster]

All was going well till I read you're Ex-RAF!!!!! :beerchug: Only joking, I've just left the RN (Senior Service) at the end of Apr this year. Glad to hear you've made a go of your own business, good luck with the future.

Well done on lasting so long. I was caught in the pension trap so nothing I could do apart from sit tight, do my ops duties, drink vodka and have a laugh while looking after the boys. Best move I ever did was come out the RAF.....if it wasn't for immediate pension rights and gratuity I would of binned it years ago. 41 and drawing a pension....great eh!!!

[Smiley69]

41 and drawing a pension....great eh!!!

Unfortunately I'm not in the same boat as you, I'm 43 and drawing a pension!!!! Woo Hoo!:biglaugh: Can't help thinking this has gone off topic some how.

[Smiley69]

Found this car round the corner from me however I don't know much about the auto gearboxes. Anything to offer? Audi A4 2.0 TDi S Line 2dr Multitronic Diesel Cabriolet 2007 (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201306267493407/sort/default/usedcars/price-from/11000/price-to/12000/fuel-type/diesel/colour/black/body-type/convertible/model/a4/make/audi/onesearchad/used/onesearchad/nearlynew/onesearchad/new/radius/1500/postcode/po155qf/page/1?logcode=p)

[adamss24]

Can I ask how you come to this staggering assumption because if this was true NO tuning company would release a remap that would be detrimental to the health of the car. The 2.0 140 TDI engine clutch is safe up to 180bhp with its additional torque and the 170TDI up to 200bhp. Endless hours of testing are carried out to ensure that any companies remaps are safe.

It took Shark Performance months to design and release their remap with the Continental PCR2.1 ECU on 1.6TDI engines. They achieved excellent figures without compromising or removing any of the ECU's safety features so you can be sure that Sharks software is the safest and smoothest around without having to modify your car to compliment it.

Out of all the 2.0TDI cars I have remapped (including Audi, VW, Seat and Skoda) I have never known one to eat its clutch due to the extra power. I have a customer who owns the 211bhp petrol A4 2.0TFSI which now runs 305bhp with Forge FMIC and DV. This work was done over a year ago and its still going strong on the original clutch..........and the diesel clutches are more heavy duty to cope with the extra torque.
Granted the clutch holding torque has nothing to do with the remap, most generic maps keep the torque as flat as possible and higher up the rev. range as well ! Having driven a few of Sharks's maps i can safely say i was not impressed, yes, they were a bit better than standard but not night and day !

As for the claim of the clutch being at the limit of the torque range, then i sustain that, most clutches i have replaced on the 2.0Tdi were past their best at 50-80k and most were on standard cars...400Nm of torque at 1500-1800rpm's are much harder on the drivetrain than 400Nm at 4000rp's...

[Brodster]

The multi-tronic boxes are very good and were the pre-cursor to DSG boxes. Multitronic, as I understand it is an updated CVT gearbox. Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT). In a normal gearbox you have a set number of ratios depending on the number of gears you have, 5, 6, 7 and now 8 gears. These ratios are selected based on the power and torque curves of the engine and are always a compromise. What CVT allows you to have is an infinite number of ratios. Imagine a rubber band moving up and down a cone continuously altering the gear ratio as it does so. So rather than the revs going up and down as you change gear, the revs remain constant and the ratio varies as speed increases and decreases. The Audi multitronic transmission combines the responsiveness and fuel efficiency of a manual gearbox with the convenience of an automatic. Thanks to its continuously variable ratios and adaptive map control, multitronic provides seamless acceleration, and always uses the optimum engine speed for the circumstances. Because of this control near to the operating optimum, fuel consumption can in some cases actually be lower than with a manual gearbox.

[Brodster]

Having driven a few of Sharks maps i can safely say i was not impressed, yes, they were a bit better than standard but not night and day

Well you must be the 1st not to like Shark maps but then again each to their own I suppose. The world would be boring if everyone liked the same thing. Slightly better than standard you say.....this is a first for me. I may PM you later to get the details as I think Shark HQ would be happy to hear some feedback. A lot of guys into their tuning are going to Shark from other tuning companies such as Revo and Bluefin and love the way the maps are designed. A Revo map is completely different to a Shark map. It all depends on what the customer wants from it and thats where Shark drop right into the market with their progressive maps. Maybe not as much low down grunt to a Revo map but it will pull all the way to the redline without hesitation. Not all are generic either as I have had numerous customers after custom maps. Alas I have no RR but I do have everything else that can populate and plot a peformance figure graph which we then tinker with and end result is 100% satisfaction.

[adamss24]

I never said i did not like the maps, the man is playing safe as he has warranties to deal with ! All i said is i've seen better maps in my life and don't get me started, seen so many maps from so called "pro's" which had fault codes turned off in the binary file so it would never put a DTC light on the dash, ever ! As with everything in life, you get what you pay for !

[adamss24]

The multi-tronic boxes are very good and were the pre-cursor to DSG boxes. Multitronic, as I understand it is an updated CVT gearbox. Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT). In a normal gearbox you have a set number of ratios depending on the number of gears you have, 5, 6, 7 and now 8 gears. These ratios are selected based on the power and torque curves of the engine and are always a compromise. What CVT allows you to have is an infinite number of ratios. Imagine a rubber band moving up and down a cone continuously altering the gear ratio as it does so. So rather than the revs going up and down as you change gear, the revs remain constant and the ratio varies as speed increases and decreases. The Audi multitronic transmission combines the responsiveness and fuel efficiency of a manual gearbox with the convenience of an automatic. Thanks to its continuously variable ratios and adaptive map control, multitronic provides seamless acceleration, and always uses the optimum engine speed for the circumstances. Because of this control near to the operating optimum, fuel consumption can in some cases actually be lower than with a manual gearbox.
You need to read a bit on the subject, multitronic CVT is using a woven belt, DSG is actually a twin dry clutch setup, nothing alike a CVT... DSG has proper planetary gears/ ratio's, CVT does not, the ratio's are programmed because folk did not like the way it shifted so they fitted the manual over-ride/flappy paddle or +/- lever !

[Crasher]

The DSG can be wet or dry clutch, 6 speed big engines wet, 7 speed little engines dry. It always amuses me when people go on about a 6 or 7 or whatever CVT, err no, it's a CVT....Most reg documents say "1" next to speeds.

[Smiley69]

The DSG can be wet or dry clutch, 6 speed big engines wet, 7 speed little engines dry. It always amuses me when people go on about a 6 or 7 or whatever CVT, err no, it's a CVT....Most reg documents say "1" next to speeds.
The car I drove last week displayed 1 through to 7 on the dashboard display when knocked the gear selector over into "semi-manual" mode. Please don't crucify me if I've used the wrong term.

[Brodster]

Correct me if Im wrong but the advert for the car clearly states it has multi-tronic gearbox which is exactly what I described. Nothing in my last comment said anything about DSG. I said DSG came later. I know DSG has twin paddle clutches which I clearly didn't talk about.

And yes I have heard about so-called tuners turning DTC's off. These are folk that cant be bothered to take the time and construct maps the correct way..........Revo, Shark, APR, MTM maps are all designed on their RR's and at no time are corners cut as I have seen them at work making maps from scratch. If they didnt their popularity wouldn't be what it is now.

adamss24....I take it you have been one of those unfortunate individuals thats bought a remap and it went pear-shaped?????

[Crasher]

Please don't crucify me if I've used the wrong term.

Sorry it wasn't meant to read like that, a lot of other posts on the subject of the Multichronic go on about the number of speeds and Audi don't help by showing them as such on the screen, all they are is steps on the cones.

[gupsterg]

Found this car round the corner from me however I don't know much about the auto gearboxes. Anything to offer? Audi A4 2.0 TDi S Line 2dr Multitronic Diesel Cabriolet 2007 (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201306267493407/sort/default/usedcars/price-from/11000/price-to/12000/fuel-type/diesel/colour/black/body-type/convertible/model/a4/make/audi/onesearchad/used/onesearchad/nearlynew/onesearchad/new/radius/1500/postcode/po155qf/page/1?logcode=p)

Car looks great :) ...


The car I drove last week displayed 1 through to 7 on the dashboard display when knocked the gear selector over into "semi-manual" mode. Please don't crucify me if I've used the wrong term.

I also noted this on test drives :) ... my way of thinking is that the dash display is like virtual gears http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wink.png ...

Crasher is correct about the cones :), here's a video ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3uvs3kjkZE

And here's another cutaway Link:- FixEuro.com - Audi CVT Cut-Model 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wD-RRym500)

Some reading material Link:- multitronic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitronic)

[Smiley69]

21949Bought this for the wife and she is proper chuffed. I went for the 2.0L TDI in the end rather than the 2.5L. Very happy with it so far with the exception that the previous owners forgot (as you can well imagine) to inform us that the spare alloy has a repaired crack on the inner rim which I'm guessing failed again a little while ago, hence why it's the spare! A new thread to be started I think

[adamss24]

Glad you're happy with your purchase, when comparing like for like you find out that the old BDG v6 tdi engine is much more reliable compared to the 2.0tdi engine...also, if you do motorway drive you'll find the v6 in it's element ! It's even as economical as the 4 cyl engine...

[Smiley69]

Thanks Adam. TBH she'll be driving it mainly around town, to and from coffee shops I suspect!!!! I now have a garage to clean out!

[kevbensam]

GO FOR THE 2.0L TDI. Plenty of power and reasonable economy. Beware of the roof motor going faulty has this a very common problem, mine went but fortunatley managed to get a guy who replaces the bushes in the motor do it for £95 not £2400 that the dealers wanted.

[Smiley69]

£2400!!! Ouch, I'll be sure to give you a call if the roof motor starts to pack up. However I have noticed that the driver's door window appears to stick on the way up. This in turn causes the window to drop down a few inches. I'm aware that this is a safety feature and if it's anything like my 2001 Passat then it'll be the regulator. Are these known to be a "weak link"?

[kite]

Get some silicone lube and squirt it down the runner with the window down.

[Crasher]

GO FOR THE 2.0L TDI. Plenty of power and reasonable economy. Beware of the roof motor going faulty has this a very common problem, mine went but fortunatley managed to get a guy who replaces the bushes in the motor do it for £95 not £2400 that the dealers wanted.

£2400!!! Ouch, I'll be sure to give you a call if the roof motor starts to pack up. However I have noticed that the driver's door window appears to stick on the way up. This in turn causes the window to drop down a few inches. I'm aware that this is a safety feature and if it's anything like my 2001 Passat then it'll be the regulator. Are these known to be a "weak link"?

I am concerned that you have been misinformed by an Audi dealer and I do not want you passing on this misinformation to other forum users. A new motor for the roof pump of an 8H Audi A4 cabriolet is £203.41 including VAT for part number 8H0 959 755 A. Even the complete pump/motor assembly is £300 less than what you state and the pump never fails in my experience.

[kevbensam]

Not sure about that been a weak link but the roof motor certainly is. The guy who repaired mine has done hundreds of them from Aberdeen to Exeter. Audi wanted to change the whole pump assembly and other dealers probably do the same hence why this guy gets jobs from all over the UK.

[Crasher]

I have fixed six 8H hoods this summer so far, two needed a new pump, one a boot storage box switch, one needed a header rail switch, another had a bizarrely bent hood frame that we still do not understand and one a rear side flap motor fault, they are easy to fix if you know what you are doing. I have NEVER replaced a pump, only the motor.