Diesel Fuel

[Argonaut]

Any techies able to shed light on this subject?
I stopped using supermarket diesel in my 55 reg 15000k 140TDi for three reasons. 1. It produced a lot of black smoke, even under moderate acceleration. 2. The independent Shell garage up the road sold diesel at the same price. 3. I had heard rumours that supermarket diesel was poorer quality, often sourced from eastern Europe, and lacked the better detergents.
SO, I now use Shell diesel and found a little less smoke, (except at hard acceration)and better performance figures especially in the mid range acceration and torque. MPG ranges from 39 to 60, dependent on conditions. Ironically, I recently put in the new "V Diesel" (99.9p/l!) by mistake, and found little difference with normal Shell diesel, except 6p a litre!.
Anyone found a good diesel brand for these engines?.

[MAC]

Argonaut,

I was having the same problems with the heavy black smoke from my 18k 140TDi, even under moderate acceleration like yourself. I too have moved from Tesco diesel to Shell, as I found it made a big difference to the running on my previous car (E320CDi MBZ). Having used the shell for a couple of weeks, the smoke was still apparent, so I have just recently had it back to the dealers under warranty, and they have re-mapped the engine with the latest software, as well as carrying out all the recent re-calls (see other recent threads). My initial thoughts are that it seems to have improved, but I have yet to check propoerly by following the wife whilst she is driving.

I think it will be worth your while getting the dealers to take a look.

Cheers

Mark

[jewjew24]

I also have switched from Tesco to Shell no problems with black smoke but better fuel economy and runs a smoother. With Tesco I just about managed to get 600 miles on a tank, now with Shell I can achieve over 650 miles to the tank.

[Argonaut]

I thought that I would update members on this issue. I have recently spend a week on holiday in northern Belgium. During that time I filled up with Shell diesel, (@ 75p litre equivalent). The difference in quality is significantly better than the brew that we get in the UK. The car has improved acceleration, especially in the mid range/overtaking zone, and there is a massive reduction in black smoke even under load and hard acceleration. So the question to the oil companies is " why are you selling the UK inferior diesel?".

:confused::confused::1zhelp:

Come on folks lets bottom this one out!.

On a seperate note this is the first time that I have driven the car such a distance, and I admit that I am disappointed in the seats. They lack lateral support, and are far inferior to the sports seats of my previous Laguna Dynamique, even allowing for all the electronic adjustment. You sit ON them not IN them IMO.

[orangezorki]

Are you really sure that the European stuff is that much better? Not that I have any special knowledge in this field, but there must be many factors in play, including environment, how it is stored, and even you have said that you hadn't done such a long journey before. It's not that I don't believe you, just that it is so easy to attribute a change to the fuel when it isn't.

Having said all that, maybe oil companies feel forced into shipping the cheaper stuff over here to make it affordable with all the taxes? I'd really appreciate it if someone with some insider info could chime in here...

David.

[Ben]

Right then

I am a tanker driver based at WOSL (warwickshire oil storage ltd) wosl is to the midlands what buncefield was to hertfordshire.

now, tesco, jet/conoco, Total, morrisons, shell, texaco bp and all the independant fuel stations get their fuel from here. It doesn't matter whether it is Unleaded or Diesel - IT ALL COMES OUT THE SAME STORAGE TANKS - and they are all supplied either by Train or underground pipeline.

There are various refineries dotted around our country that refine the crude and turn it in to all grades of fuel and then depending on who wants a supply, depends whether is gets put on a train (3 million litres per train) or down the pipe. It is all produced to the SAME SPECIFICATION (whatever the british standard is).

Now when the road tanker that delivers the fuel to the filling station where you take your car has to load, it goes on to what is termed a 'loading bay'. The tanker before it may of been a BP tanker, followed by a shell tanker, and then maybe a morrisons tanker. All the fuel loaded is fed to the tanker by the same supply pipe and out the same tank.

The only difference is the addative which is added to the fuel about 15 feet before the fuel goes on the truck.

Ignoring the expensive fuels, i.e. total excellium, shell v-power and bp whatever it is. we are left only with the basic fuel.

so whether you fill up at Tesco, morrisons, sainsburys, asda, shell, total, bp, texaco or jet ALL THE FUEL IS THE SAME STUFF AND THE SAME GRADE

so can we please refrain from this nonesene that shells diesel is better than Tesco or asda better that bp because its not true.


just that it is so easy to attribute a change to the fuel when it isn't.

David.

Correct, its usually psychological - if you believe that switching from tesco to shell is giving you more power then you're likely to feel it - chances are, there is no difference - Its all in your head.

Also anyone that has been to a european filling station will beable to tell that the european octane ratings ar ever so slightly different to ours.

this also doesn't matter because 99% of the time YOU ARE IN THE UK.

this black smoke lark - a friend of mine bought a 54 plate diesel and it smoked like hell, this was because it had pottered around the town. Drove it hard for a week or take 3rd to the red line and this cleared the problem.

Yes in certain circumstances it may be over or under fueling but normally its lack of proper use.

THIS IS WOSL
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb105/golfmk5gttdi/WOSLn.jpg

Area 1 is WOSL loading here is JET/Conoco, Total,

Area 2 is Texaco loading here is Texaco, Shell

Area 3 is the Train

Area 4 is BP, loading here is BP, Shell,

ALL THE SUPERMARKETS LOAD FROM WHEREVER IS THE CHEAPEST.

If one place has run out of product - it does happen - everyone can go everywhere else but noe normally.

Independant companies can load where they like, usually where the cheapest product is.

[onzarob]

Good info, but I'm amazed that you can get a hi-res shot of a fuel depot, bombs away!

(PS I moved the thread to the talk about anything inc cars as its A very universal topic;))

[mobitune]

The only difference is the addative which is added to the fuel about 15 feet before the fuel goes on the truck.

Ok, and the various additives are added to SOME diesels, but not others?


so whether you fill up at Tesco, morrisons, sainsburys, asda, shell, total, bp, texaco or jet ALL THE FUEL IS THE SAME STUFF AND THE SAME GRADE


So how can it be the "SAME STUFF AND THE SAME GRADE" if it isn't added to all diesels, or different additives are added to different suppliers diesels? :confused:

[Ben]

Ok, and the various additives are added to SOME diesels, but not others?



So how can it be the "SAME STUFF AND THE SAME GRADE" if it isn't added to all diesels, or different additives are added to different suppliers diesels? :confused:

only the higher grades of diesel, the stuff you pay more for.

the bog standard stuff is the same.

i'll use shell for an example.

v-power and none v-power. v-power (addative) will be about £1.08 per litre the normal stuff 0.99p per litre.


total will have their addative, bp theirs and shell theirs. these loading bays are very clever with the electronics and valves and pipes.

[Big_E]

If I am perfectly honest, I use any diesel from any petrol stop, as I need it, I do try and use Shell as a rule, but I don't loose sleep over it. End of the day, The cars looked after, it runs and I get decent MPG as I'd expect, I wouldn't pay 4p more a litre, just so I know it contains this and that which help the vehicles guts.

[Ben]

If I am perfectly honest, I use any diesel from any petrol stop, as I need it, I do try and use Shell as a rule, but I don't loose sleep over it. End of the day, The cars looked after, it runs and I get decent MPG as I'd expect, I wouldn't pay 4p more a litre, just so I know it contains this and that which help the vehicles guts.


That, i believe is the right mindset to have.

Personally, i always fill up at my local Tesco. Numerous reasons, its local, i get tesco points so i can get a free train to france, and there are lots of pumps to choose from.

[Big_E]

That, i believe is the right mindset to have.

Personally, i always fill up at my local Tesco. Numerous reasons, its local, i get tesco points so i can get a free train to france, and there are lots of pumps to choose from.


That tickled me.

I have massive pet peeves with Petrol Station etiquette. Infact, I'll start a thread on this, hold tight.

[Argonaut]

Wow,I actually started a good thread so there goes my cherry!.:biglaugh:. Plenty of good info here. I had already heard the tale of all diesel coming out the same pipe, but until now thats all it was, a tale. Thanks for confirming the truth GOLFMK5GTTDI. As the majority of my driving is urban with the occasional M- way blast, I had considered that all the car needed was a "good run" to decoke it (but only 15800 miles on the clock) and the Belgium trip was ideal (trip meter readout was 462 miles @51.2 mpg). However, even running on my UK diesel over there it still smoked under hard acceleration, but this smoke reduced after tanking up with the euro brew. So the jury is still out. What I intend to do is run the tank down to the fumes then see what response I get with the UK fuel. The experiment continues!.
:beerchug:

[Eshrules]

Ok, and the various additives are added to SOME diesels, but not others?
So how can it be the "SAME STUFF AND THE SAME GRADE" if it isn't added to all diesels, or different additives are added to different suppliers diesels? :confused:

my thinking too... see below


only the higher grades of diesel, the stuff you pay more for.

the bog standard stuff is the same.

i'll use shell for an example.

v-power and none v-power. v-power (addative) will be about £1.08 per litre the normal stuff 0.99p per litre.


total will have their addative, bp theirs and shell theirs. these loading bays are very clever with the electronics and valves and pipes.

nope, sorry i disagree, especially with the MPG...

i've been using shell for about 6 months now and been averaging 30/35mpg around town (not bad for stop/start)...

for the last 3 weeks i've been using tesco as it's closer and i wanted to see just what was what and if it was all in my head. i am proud to report i am not mental and there is a definitive difference in the MPG with tescos. i'm barely touching 30mpg, the car runs quite a bit rougher on it, especially at start, the diesel doesn't seem to burn as well. on a trip to trafford centre the other night, i'd usually average at least 45/50mpg. i struggled to top 40 on the tesco fuel.

long and short of it, IMHO, tesco's fuel is inferior and after much debate with various people, it would appear that the additives DO make a difference. i can't see Shell adding exactly the same additive to their fuel as Tesco.

another thing puzzles me.... if all these supermarkets get their fuel from the same place as the likes of Bp & shell... how come it was only the supermarket fuels affected by that dreaded 'infected' fuel a while ago?

[mobitune]

It is not just the fancy additives that they (Shell, BP etc) market as for example "v-power" that they put in the diesel, there are others too. This explains why supermarket fuel is of inferior quality IMHO

When I bought my Golf about 6 weeks ago, it had a full tank of BP's regular diesel.. Since then I have filled with Tesco diesel and have noticed a serious drop in mpg, 7mpg on motorway and 4-5mpg on a short run to work where the engine doesn't even get up to optimum temperature.

Remember, if the power isn't in the fuel (ie low quality diesel), we need more fuel to produce the power required to drive at any given speed.

Until now i've been using Tesco for the simple reason they are the cheapest in my area, plus I get a 5p/litre discount voucher given to me every time the promotion is on. After reading this thread it has got me thinking.. if the difference is noticable in fuel consumption it is not inconcievable that the inferior diesel could be causing problems inside the pump(s) and injector nozzles. Excess soot produced will also clog up exhaust baffles.. under hard acceleraton then some of this will be blown out and appear as black smoke.

[Karlos_Fandango]

only the higher grades of diesel, the stuff you pay more for.

the bog standard stuff is the same.

i'll use shell for an example.

v-power and none v-power. v-power (addative) will be about £1.08 per litre the normal stuff 0.99p per litre.


total will have their addative, bp theirs and shell theirs. these loading bays are very clever with the electronics and valves and pipes.


All very good information, thanks very much!

[cbrpaul]

Just thought id mention

Was it Morrisons and Tescos only , who sold fuel with Silicone in it last year

Killing off cars Lambda sensors !!! making them useless !!!!

How come the big boys didnt have this problem, if it all comes from the source, did they add this later on :confused:

[baj25]

hi everyone,

you all keep going on about mpg and it changes from what garage you go to.well what about every day driving and how you drive, lets just say that the first 3 months you had shell and another 3 months using tesco.the only way you could test on the both of them would be to drive exactly the same way on every day for the whole of the 6 months.what about air con and tire pressure, winter to summer,when the car has been serviced,the weight of stuff in the car, sitting in traffic. there could be endless amount of reasons why the mpg is not the same.the only way to sort this out is to get a sample from every garage and get them all tested.i always get between 700 and 750 miles out of a full tank in my audi and i fill up at ang garage.

[Karlos_Fandango]

hi everyone,

you all keep going on about mpg and it changes from what garage you go to.well what about every day driving and how you drive, lets just say that the first 3 months you had shell and another 3 months using tesco.the only way you could test on the both of them would be to drive exactly the same way on every day for the whole of the 6 months.what about air con and tire pressure, winter to summer,when the car has been serviced,the weight of stuff in the car, sitting in traffic. there could be endless amount of reasons why the mpg is not the same.the only way to sort this out is to get a sample from every garage and get them all tested.i always get between 700 and 750 miles out of a full tank in my audi and i fill up at ang garage.


If that is your Audi R10 in the picture and still getting 700 mpg, then you are not driving it hard enough :biglaugh:

[onzarob]

Just thought id mention

Was it Morrisons and Tescos only , who sold fuel with Silicone in it last year

Killing off cars Lambda sensors !!! making them useless !!!!

How come the big boys didn't have this problem, if it all comes from the source, did they add this later on :confused:

That contamination was silicon, which came from a tanker that was previously used for diesel (No harm done in diesel). I think is was not clean properly before being used for petrol hence the problems.:D

[Ben]

That contamination was silicon, which came from a tanker that was previously used for diesel (No harm done in diesel). I think is was not clean properly before being used for petrol hence the problems.:D

the way i read that rob, is that the tanker used was not one of the usual type tankers, as normal road fuel tankers don't require 'cleaning' before reloading.

this leads me to believe that it was a 3rd party haulier which can haul other substancies which would require the tank to be cleaned so as not to cause a contamination.

[onzarob]

Ben

I remembered it wrong, it was the storage tanks that had high levels of silicone in them, read the link ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6416385.stm

[cbrpaul]

That contamination was silicon, which came from a tanker that was previously used for diesel (No harm done in diesel). I think is was not clean properly before being used for petrol hence the problems.:D

ah ,

thx Rob ;)

[mobitune]

Ben
it was the storage tanks that had high levels of silicone in them

So the supermarkets were using a different tank to the others.

[Ben]

the terminal may have more than one storage tank. Each tank can typically hold up to 7 million litres.

The biggest tank at WOSL holds 17 million litres of red diesel.

They would of just shut off that one tank and isolated it.

I can only comment on where i work. Other terminals may operate differently.

it is / would be possible construct a system that x ammount of loading bays only drawer off certain tanks and thus assign companies to these loading bays.

guess what is the most hauled item on british roads?

bricks? nope, palletised goods? nope guess again, fuel? correct.

the numbers are massive

Do you realise just how serious Buncefield was? and the implications it has had? Until you see what is in a fuel terminal (the size and scale of everything) just pushes home the huge forces that were at work to do that much damage.

http://www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk/images/index.htm

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/yourenv/857406/1354565/?version=1&lang=_e

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Buncefield-Explosion/dp/0955275903/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-2402930-4258840?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193956741&sr=8-1

The book is well worth a read.

[PHPsauce]

Firstly let me say that like Ben I work within the fuel industry.

Ben is exactly right in that all regular grades of fuel are supplied from a few refinery/terminal outlets. They all operate exchange agreements. This means a Shell garage may well receive it's product from a Chevron terminal or a supermarket forecourt may get its fuel from BP one day and Shell or an independent another day. The fuel is the same within it's legal variance.

Premium fuel is different in that it is specific to the brand and the blend is only supplied to the supplier that commissioned the blend. You will never find shell v being sold as a premium fuel at any other retailer as a premium fuel.

The specific issue of the silicon problem was that the fuel came from a contaminated tank that just so happened to supply supermarket retailers. The Thames area has all the major brands within a smallish area so BP, Shell and the likes had no need to use the supplier as they have there own storage.

In terms of reduced mpg, it is difficult to be exact as we do not drive the same everyday, weather changes, maybe we don't fill up to the same level etc.

At the end of the day fill up where you are happy, but where it is you do, you can be sure that the fuel is the same unless you go premium 99 etc.

Its worth noting that supermarkets do have problems but no more that the BP and shells, but the scale is somewhat different. The supermarkets sell the majority of the fuel so it looks like they all the problems. Problems per litre sold are no better or worse than anyone else.

Hope that all makes sense.

[SammoVWT]

I will say this Ben, my local tesco ruined my car with their petrol, it ran like poo. I think its probably down to local storage quality. Or the additive in the Tesco super makes it break down quickly.

Dont have a problem with shell fuel, which is less than half a mile away from the Tesco store

[ruggedscot]

The fuel issue is just that an issue - the big companies have had to do something to try and keep business or else everyone would be going to the local supermarket to buy fuel. Just now with fuel prices as much as they are people buy what they can afford. Fuel is fuel its made to a specification laid down by the government. It must be to a specific standard. The premium fuels are just that fuel with a premium attached. The premium being used to support the advertising the additive and to provide a little more extra profit into the hands of the garage. I use a mix of both garage fuel and supermarket and can say that I have not noticed any real difference between the brands. Ill get around 40-50 to the gallon - it all comes down to how I drive and the traffic conditions. If you believe the hype then fair do but I still think that its the advertising that is the main difference in the fuels and along with the tie ins with motor sport shell= Ferrari for example they want that precious rub off to make people buy into the best fuel con. Of course with petrol some of the fuels will appear to give a better performance as these fuels contain more energy a higher octane rating. so this would make the engine run a tad better - add in other fuel additives such as cleaner and the like then yes it may be doing some good. its still a marketing con though and one that you see through in time. nothing wrong with running a dose of redex every now and then and not being swayed by the super dooper latest fuel con. The get enough money from us as it is !

[SammoVWT]

I use v-power petrol for the Ron rating. Plus it burns a bit better

[peteo]

If you look around on the internet it transpires that Tesco buy their diesel fuel from a company called Greenergy. This company was set up in 1992 by an entrepreneur and oil industry expert. They have a plant in Immingham that makes, amongst other things, diesel fuel. They blend in some bio diesel some of which can have traces of animal fat in it.

In fairness to them, they also publish the independent test results where an assessor visits the site and analyses the fuel. They say that they are the only company to put this info out on the web.

The company seems to have a strong "green" ethos.

The impression I got from looking round their site was that they supplied a number of companies.

This seemed to indicate that Tesco fuel, at least, was NOT the same as others or that was my reading anyway.

PS

Forgot to mention - Tesco have a 30% share in Greenergy.

[Ben]

Just over 35% http://m.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/28/tesco-petrol-retail-industry?cat=business&type=article
And I believe that Tesco have 49% of stobarts group.