Grumpy Cold Gearbox

[P4ss4t]

Hi - I have had a look back through some previous posts but not getting quite the same symptoms as others.

My car is a bit tricky getting into 1st, very notchy into 2nd when it is cold.

After 10 minutes driving it is absolutely fine.

No clutch slip, no other symptoms...

My thoughts are that it needs an oil change or maybe the linkage needs a little adjustment but I would be interested to know what others suggest or have had in the past?

Thanks :D

[scotty33]

The standard fluid is 75w-80 grade fully synthetic (fuch's titan sintofluid 75- 80 is equivalent to vw oil G052 911), if a heavier oil eg 75-90 has been used you can get poor cold shifting. Other than that it may be clutch drag, which is due to it not disengaging fully.

[P4ss4t]

Thanks for your reply Scotty - so is it possible that the clutch drag only manifest itself with 2nd gear selection?

I did a couple of hundred mile journey in the car yesterday and all was well.

Thanks

[caldirun]

The standard fluid is 75w-80 grade fully synthetic (fuch's titan sintofluid 75- 80 is equivalent to vw oil G052 911), if a heavier oil eg 75-90 has been used you can get poor cold shifting. Other than that it may be clutch drag, which is due to it not disengaging fully.

I am a bit puzzled by what you say in this post, I have always thought the the first viscosity figure was the cold viscosity and the second was the hot viscosity. If what I am saying is true and he has problems only when the box is cold then a 75w-80 would perform the same as a 75w-90 (the cold viscosity is the same)

[scotty33]

I accept, that what you say is technically correct. I can't give a technical reason why, but lots of drivers from tdiclub forum have reported poor cold shifting when they use, for example redline 75-90 oil, which they may have chosen for their faith in it's long term protection. I would also add that tired engines with 'loose' big end clearances are usually fine when cold but suffer oil pressure problems at hot idle, how is that if say a 10 cold - 40 hot oil is used?
I can say that the additives package in the different VW transmission oils varies a lot, the chances of the aftermarket matching up are not good imo. With this in mind I believe fuchs supply VAG with fluids, and the oil I quoted meets the VAG spec for the passat oil grade.

[scotty33]

My car is a bit tricky getting into 1st, very notchy into 2nd when it is cold.

After 10 minutes driving it is absolutely fine.



Does it go into first and second cold OK without the engine running? Clutch drag can be caused by air in the hyds or a failing master or even slave cylinder, if anything I would guess it would get worse hot rather than better, maybe the experts know different?

Is the oil level OK? The oil is technically 'filled for life' and I think not part of the servicing regime. to me filled for life, means get to the end of the warranty, not 10 years+.
If your car is 5 speed I think the filler and level plugs are 12 point multispline, 6 speed is allen key (14mm rings a bell, but please check!)

[zollaf]

change gear oil first before going for expensive solutions. use good quality stuff.

[P4ss4t]

Thanks to you all for your advice

I have tried the car when cold and not running and it goes through the gears ok - its when its running that it gets reticent for the first few minutes then it is OK

I think I will try the Gearbox oil swap and see how that goes...unless anyone else has any thoughts!

[scotty33]

I suppose it would not hurt to bleed the clutch first? there is a bleed nipple on the slave, which is a pig to get at, nestled on top of the gearbox..

[caldirun]

change gear oil first before going for expensive solutions. use good quality stuff.

Great advice, do the easy/cheap things first, I had a similar problem many years ago (well before Passat B5.5s), I thought it was the driven plate or the pressure plate distorted so I dropped the gearbox out. I inspected the clutch and could find nothing wrong, put it back together and still the same!
I then had a thought, increase the release arm movement so I made a small brass spacer to insert between the piston and rod in the slave cylinder, it worked like magic and took little time and was free!
I had already tried lowering the gearbox oil viscosity, it did improve it but not cure it.

[P4ss4t]

Hi - thanks for all the above advice and suggestions.

I have had the oil changed and initial impressions are that the problem has been solved...will drive it around for a few days and see how it goes but for now its all looking good!

[P4ss4t]

I suppose it would not hurt to bleed the clutch first? there is a bleed nipple on the slave, which is a pig to get at, nestled on top of the gearbox..

Hi I have done the gearbox oil swap, driven it round for a few hundred miles and its better but still not good enough.

I am wondering where to go next - slave/master cylinder? Linkage?

Any thoughts?

Cheers

[scotty33]

A worn linkage won't necessarily stop you getting gears, but really does not help. With your car in gear, how much free play front-back and side-side is there? My one car has some play in the linkage, I had to be quite precise with setting up the gearstick position, in order to get all gears after the gearbox rebuild, but once that was done, it changes gear ok, just not very 'positive'.
You have nothing to lose by bleeding the clutch, while you are there, have an assistant 'waggle' the gearstick while you inspect the linkages?
I guess if it is severely worn, you might lose enough movement to struggle to get all gears, no matter where it is adjusted? The 6 speed linkage has one big ball joint which is not intended to be dismantled, it is a steel ball, plastic socket insert held into a 'pocket' on the linkage rod. I prised open the lip, that holds the plastic insert in place. wrapped a few turns of tape around it's outside and squeezed it back in, the tape forced the sides 'in' tighter against the ball, reducing play. tap the lip over to hold it all together? Not sure what the deal is with 5 speed?

[P4ss4t]

A worn linkage won't necessarily stop you getting gears, but really does not help. With your car in gear, how much free play front-back and side-side is there? My one car has some play in the linkage, I had to be quite precise with setting up the gearstick position, in order to get all gears after the gearbox rebuild, but once that was done, it changes gear ok, just not very 'positive'.
You have nothing to lose by bleeding the clutch, while you are there, have an assistant 'waggle' the gearstick while you inspect the linkages?
I guess if it is severely worn, you might lose enough movement to struggle to get all gears, no matter where it is adjusted? The 6 speed linkage has one big ball joint which is not intended to be dismantled, it is a steel ball, plastic socket insert held into a 'pocket' on the linkage rod. I prised open the lip, that holds the plastic insert in place. wrapped a few turns of tape around it's outside and squeezed it back in, the tape forced the sides 'in' tighter against the ball, reducing play. tap the lip over to hold it all together? Not sure what the deal is with 5 speed?

It feels fine and some of the time it slips in to gear with no problems whatsoever.

I have been thinking that maybe I should consider the clutch fluid as I cant see any mention of it being changed and with the recent clear out of the water chamber by the bulkhead, maybe the fluid could have been compromised by water?

But the one thing that I keep coming back to is that its mainly trying to get into second gear (sometimes going into 1st and 3rd too) that it does this and only sometimes...am I trying to hard for it to not be the gearbox that is at fault and should I bite the bullet and accept that its the clutch or gearbox?

[scotty33]

Well it could be the gearbox, if the synchro's are worn, they wont be speed matching the gears properly for it to change cleanly. When it does change cleanly, you may have matched the speeds 'by chance'? I would try upshifting and downshifting at different rpm's see if there is a pattern to it. If there is, you may need synchro's on the affected gears.
Is it 5 or 6 speed?
You have nothing to lose and, there may be an argument for flushing through some clutch fluid anyway, due to possible contamination?