Can anyone help me???

[GreatGig]

Hi anyone who can help,

I own a 2002 Passat TDI estate. Around Feb my car started losing power sluggish up hills no umph at all. I took it to the local VW dealer whi changed the air mass meter and presented me with a £800 bill. So I paid it and went on my way. The car still had the same problem. I took it back and he said it was the turbo. So he put a new turbo on and gave it back to me in April. I had it a week and the same thing happened again. So took it in and they said they could find nothing wrong with it. I kept telling them after about half an hour of driving and going at speed and uphils it started losing power. So they kept it. Apparantly they drained out the exhaust and it is now fine. So I took it home last week - 6months after the problem started. It seems to be ok now but I now have a MASSIVE bill to pay for. Nearly £2000 this year so far!
My question is this. Is there anyone out there who I can contact email or phone etc and ask you if they have royally ripped me off and done unnecessary work or if they have taken the correct course of action. I just feel like the a new turbo could have been avoided or something could have been avoided at least.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help, my contact email is below.
Sarah
sarah@bp-purchasingDOTcoDOTuk (sarah@bp-purchasingDOTcoDOTuk)

[philglasgow]

Sarah

I have experienced similar issues as have a lot of people on here, but on this forum there are posts relating to this where dealers have blamed the turbo and replaced it to no avail at your cost

It could be something as simple as a burst hose, vacuum problem . I would suggest that maybe someone on here who has Vag COM s/ware could possibly check this for you ?

DO NOT give any more money to main dealers who seem to guess not check

There are some very knowledgable and helpful people on here who Im sure can offer advice.

just my tuppence worth


Phil

[GreatGig]

Thanks Phil, I spent about 3hrs on and off here this week reading about N75 /EGMs / valves pipes etc all gobbledigook to me. They said they used their diagnostic tool / software and found nothing but the turbo needed replacing. 3 months after changing the air mass thingy and other stuff. the thing is I'm not sure what to do about paying their bill. How can I prove that they did unecessary work or if they did their job properly??

I have no idea. I just feel sick about handing over a load more money to them. I spoke to the owner of the garage today who said they took the right course of action and the fees are justified. But I can't help feeling that they should have fixed it properly 6months ago and it would have saved me a bomb. Do I pay ? I don't know. Arggggghhh help.

[bora(ing) nick]

I took it to the local VW dealer whi changed the air mass meter and presented me with a £800 bill.

What!!!! I think AMM's are around the £100 mark (i'll check the GSF parts site now) and normally it's not the meter that needs changing, just the sensor. From what i remember reading... changing the Meter is only a quick job, and surely doesn't justify £700.

I think you have been ripped off.

Theres loads of good advice on here regarding consumer rights if you search for long enough... I can't remember the names of any threads right now, but i'll post up any info i remember.

Good luck

Nick

[onzarob]

The MAF is £56+vat from VW...and takes 10mins to replace, so let say 1 hour for diagnostics plus 30mins to change it. lbaour at my VW garage is 65+vat.

So for £153 + Vat you can have your MAF Diagnosed and changed.

So they have changed the Turbo and the fault is still there, the turbo wasnot faulty ask for the old one back;)

Your fault sounds more like an over boost or sensor failure. definatly not £2000 worth of problems.

What do they mean by 'drained the exhaust'...sounds like toggle waffle..ie rubbish:confused:

[GreatGig]

I think they did some other stuff with the AMM but not sure what a service may have been in there. I will check the paperwork and post it in a bit.

[stevegrass777]

Well i would complain about the £800 pound bill for diagnosis and replacement of MAF that is well expensive and it was incorrect......
It all seems like they were guessing and throwing parts at it.
Before you pay the bill go down and complain and tell them you will get an independent to look at the bill's and the car as you are not happy with their miss diagnosis..
They should then start to rapidly reduce the bill hopefully.
Drained out the exhaust?
what does that mean if the cat is gone then don't you replace it?
can someone explain draining the exhaust?

[a8 tech]

There is a test plan via 5051(v.a.g diagnostics )to check for full load turbo out put which would simiulate up hill power loss.Then there is good old vac pump testing for leaks and also boost pressure in line test and if all else fails measured value blocks.If the cat had collapsed it would block off the exhaust gas intermitantly but normaly there would be a metalic rattle and a smell in the engine bay/cockpit as the gases back up.There are meny causes of power loss and often the individual will go for the easiest known option(air mass)without checking the turbo system correctly.

[Col]

Sounds like you need some plain langauge terms and facts with which you could go armed with to confront them.

As starting point, could you post up on here exactly what work you have had carried out and how much it has cost. I assume the £800 bill was for the air mass sensor and a new turbo?

Terms like draining the exhaust sound like a load of fictious technobabble. I have never heard of the term.

Another approach would be to phone up another dealership and get a quote for the same work. They may come out with the classic "we need to do diagnostics on your car first at £xx per hour plus vat blah blah blah." in which case you could play the "well i've just been recovered by the AA and they ran their diagnostics on the car, so I am quite certain that is what I need." If they seem reluctant to give you a quote it is highly likely they to will turn out to be a bit unscrupulous as well, in which case try another.

It may actually be a good idea to get two of these quotes for the work you have had carried out from two or maybe three other VW dealers. The note above asking you to post up what you have had done could help us advise you on how to approach and ask for the quote, it would also be important to establish how long the work would take.

I'd say the best approach is to go armed with this info direct to VW UK.

Sadly this seems to be all to common these days no matter what make car you drive. There is usually an un-trained fool who you will speak to at the service reception who seems to be incapable of relaying your problem to the mechanics. Main dealers only seem to be interested in selling cars and making money on basic servicing. When a real problem needs sorting out they seem to throw parts at a car until something sticks and solves the problem. A very frustrating situation really as the actual mechanics are probably under instruction to carry out only the works to the car they have been told to do. The member A8tech is an Audi master mechanic and thankfully he shares his know-how with us lot. I bet there is one like him at every dealer but we can't talk to them or they are not allowed to do what is neccessary.

Please post some more information about this.

[GreatGig]

Sounds like you need some plain langauge terms and facts with which you could go armed with to confront them.

As starting point, could you post up on here exactly what work you have had carried out and how much it has cost. I assume the £800 bill was for the air mass sensor and a new turbo?

Terms like draining the exhaust sound like a load of fictious technobabble. I have never heard of the term.

Another approach would be to phone up another dealership and get a quote for the same work. They may come out with the classic "we need to do diagnostics on your car first at £xx per hour plus vat blah blah blah." in which case you could play the "well i've just been recovered by the AA and they ran their diagnostics on the car, so I am quite certain that is what I need." If they seem reluctant to give you a quote it is highly likely they to will turn out to be a bit unscrupulous as well, in which case try another.

It may actually be a good idea to get two of these quotes for the work you have had carried out from two or maybe three other VW dealers. The note above asking you to post up what you have had done could help us advise you on how to approach and ask for the quote, it would also be important to establish how long the work would take.

I'd say the best approach is to go armed with this info direct to VW UK.

Sadly this seems to be all to common these days no matter what make car you drive. There is usually an un-trained fool who you will speak to at the service reception who seems to be incapable of relaying your problem to the mechanics. Main dealers only seem to be interested in selling cars and making money on basic servicing. When a real problem needs sorting out they seem to throw parts at a car until something sticks and solves the problem. A very frustrating situation really as the actual mechanics are probably under instruction to carry out only the works to the car they have been told to do. The member A8tech is an Audi master mechanic and thankfully he shares his know-how with us lot. I bet there is one like him at every dealer but we can't talk to them or they are not allowed to do what is neccessary.

Please post some more information about this.
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the response so far.

Here is a list of the work they have carried out:

March:
Replaced Air Mass Metre
Replaced Turbo pipe and seals
Replaced the coolant temp sender
Changed the boost pressure solenoid
Diagnosed vehicle using the 5051 fault finding computer

(Also some cosmetic work replaced the engine under tray and refitted front bumper as best as possible
Changed the o.s dip beam bulb
Supplied and fitter new brake light bulb)

Total cost includ Vat: £768.50

After doing the above I drove it for a little while and the loss of power problem had still not been fixed so I sent it back.

April bill
They said the turbo had blown up and they supplied and fitted a non VW turbo (I was not going to pay £1000 for a VW one so I found a new Garrett one which was the same as was on the car already and so they charged me cost for that). On the bill it says:

Supplied and fitted non VW turbo as turbo had blown up. Had to remove exhaust to clean it out as filled with oil.

Total for this £891.16 (Turbo was £545 which I found rest is labour).

I then got the car back and after driving it for a week I found that the loss of power problem came back so it had not been fixed at all. So I sent it back.
They said they couldn’t find anything wrong with it. I kept telling them it wasn’t right and asked them to drive it for an hour till it was warm and then they would see.
They wouldn’t do that put they let it run in the garage for 3hours and then noticed out of the corner of their eye that the pointer had dipped. This meant the wastegate control solenoid valve was faulty so they replaced that. Now I have it back and it seems to be running fine.

I went and saw them on Saturday and asked him what it was they did to fix the problem which is when I found out about the 3hr test etc etc. I asked him that if they had changed the wastegate control solenoid valve in the first place then none of the other work would have been necessary? He said it was not an overboost problem it was underboosting and so it would have needed a new turbo eventually anyway. If it was an overboost problem he would understand why we have a problem with accepting the bill. He has put a claim into VW wastegate control solenoid valve as apparently this should not go wrong.

So what do I do. Did they misdiagnose it to begin with? Should I be paying all this? Did I need all this work doing?

I told them I was seeking advice and that I would send a letter to VW and see what they have to say on the matter before I pay up.

Thanks for any help in advance.


Sarah

[Col]

A quick reply as I will need to read that a few times to take it in...

Turbo's

What they are saying about overboost and underboost is wrong because;

The turbo when at rest without any vacuum applied to it rests in the low boost (safe) position. Therefore if the N75 or control valve is faulty it would underboost.

A three hour test to determine this in my opinion is about two and a half hours to much, assuming the minimum they would charge is a half hour.

As for your initial problem, although pricy sounds about right

The part about cleaning out the exhaust would point to the fact that on your original turbo, the oil seals failed and let oil into the exhaust. Sounds like you were actually quite lucky as if the oil has got through the other side of the turbo, the engine would have used the oil as fuel and could have run away until it destroyed itself as there is no way to stop it other than to forcibly stall the engine.

As for the turbo, there is no such thing as a VW turbo, they are ALL made by Garret for this engine.

Anyone, this reply is fairly incoherant, I hope to add a more structured response later.
Hopefully some of the really clever people like A8tech, Lex Luthor, Ini and Eshrules will be along amonst others who'll add there bits.

[GreatGig]

Hi thanks for the reply.

Glad to hear that the first bill is accurate. Cheers for that.

I am stiil a bit confused though, could you or anyone have a stab at answering these Q's for me. Thanks so much.

a>is the waste gate solenoid control valve better known as the N75?

b>If they had found out that the wastegate thingy was faulty when they changed the air mass metre etc would that have saved me getting a new turbo 2 months later?

c>Did I need a new turbo because the wastegate thingy failed or is that a seperate problem and not linked?

d>If they hadn't found out that the wastegate thingy was faulty would that have ended up causing the new turbo to fail also?

e> now I have the car back the turbo seems to kick in really quickly - is that ok, is it normal with new turbo's?

I am so pleased I found this forum - it is fantastic for piece of mind and understanding stuff.

Many thanks
Sarah

[onzarob]

What they are saying about overboost and underboost is wrong because;

The turbo when at rest without any vacuum applied to it rests in the low boost (safe) position. Therefore if the N75 or control valve is faulty it would underboost.



Col, I would disagree there, i'm speaking from experence here, I had the connection broken from the pressure converter that controls the N75 valve, as I'm sure your aware, to the turbo. This basically rendered no control on the valve, at this point the car would run fine until the engine was under greater load then the revs would be throttled back, I assume by the ECU. An overboost error at this point was logged by the ECU.

I'm basically saying if the N75 cannot be controlled then the ECU limits revs when the boost cannot be reduced. I don't think there is a fail safe on theturbo :dunno:

[GreatGig]

(Sorry posted twice as I think Rob and I posted at the same time')
Hi thanks for the reply.

Glad to hear that the first bill is accurate. Cheers for that.

I am stiil a bit confused though, could you or anyone have a stab at answering these Q's for me. Thanks so much.

a>is the waste gate solenoid control valve better known as the N75?

b>If they had found out that the wastegate thingy was faulty when they changed the air mass metre etc would that have saved me getting a new turbo 2 months later?

c>Did I need a new turbo because the wastegate thingy failed or is that a seperate problem and not linked?

d>If they hadn't found out that the wastegate thingy was faulty would that have ended up causing the new turbo to fail also?

e> now I have the car back the turbo seems to kick in really quickly - is that ok, is it normal with new turbo's?

I am so pleased I found this forum - it is fantastic for piece of mind and understanding stuff.

Many thanks
Sarah

[onzarob]

The turbo dosn't have a wastegate, its a recirculating turbo, the following link is very god at explianing how it works, the N75 valve is the mechanical control for for the vains the pressure conveter actually controls it, by a vaccuum,

http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/Gasturbinen/VNT15-Turbo/vnt15-turbo.html

http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/vtg-sequenz.gif

No problem for the advice we al like to help ;)

[GreatGig]

Thanks Rob, I read it a couple of times but it went right over my head. I'm really trying hard to understand but it is hard for me I am sooo not technical. Would you be really kind to try and answer the questions I put above if you can. Thanks so much again...Sarah

[Col]

Rob,

I'm more than happy to listen and learn but I don't fully understand your explanation.

The turbo in its default state is in the low (or no) boost position. Vacuum is applied to the actuator which pulls the vanes against spring pressure to the high boost position.

[edit]


I'm basically saying if the N75 cannot be controlled then the ECU limits revs when the boost cannot be reduced. I don't think there is a fail safe on theturbo.

I see..... having re-read.

What you are saying is that if the N75 were applying uncontrolled vacuum which I suppose is a way in which it could fail, the boost would remain high.

However the ecu would sense the overboost and cut the fuel, the overboost would only last for a few seconds.

[Col]

Glad to hear that the first bill is accurate. Cheers for that.

I'd rather this was discussed, I think it does sound about right providing that the work was necessary.


a>is the waste gate solenoid control valve better known as the N75?

Yes the N75 is the turbo control solenoid.


b>If they had found out that the wastegate thingy was faulty when they changed the air mass metre etc would that have saved me getting a new turbo 2 months later?

Doubt it, it sounds like the oil seals in the turbo were the cause and they'd state (probably correctly) that the two are unconnected.


c>Did I need a new turbo because the wastegate thingy failed or is that a seperate problem and not linked?

See above, I think you have two separaate issues, one with the control of the turbo via the N75, the other on the turbo itself.


d>If they hadn't found out that the wastegate thingy was faulty would that have ended up causing the new turbo to fail also?

Doubtful and probably impossible to prove.


e> now I have the car back the turbo seems to kick in really quickly - is that ok, is it normal with new turbo's?

Yes, TDI's by their nature gives lots of grunt low down the rev range.


I am so pleased I found this forum - it is fantastic for piece of mind and understanding stuff.

I really need some help here chaps, please state your views and opinions as well, hopefully somewhere in the middle we will be spot on.

[chrisvrscrx]

I got quoted £1500 for a new turbo and fitting. The parts man said if you get VW to supply the turbo is £997 parts, this includes a two year warranty. If they went elsewhere for a turbo £500 ish sounds correct, this wont come with a warranty.

To me the turbo did sound like it was on its way out, mine was low on power and it was intermittant. I didn't believe the ******* and my turbo blew up. And as bigcol said the oil did get sucked in by the engine and I had to forceably stall it.

You paid so much money because thats why we call them ******** because there robbing T*&ts.

As you say it accelerates better now, that just proves it was the turbo- well to me anyway.

[onzarob]

Thanks Rob, I read it a couple of times but it went right over my head. I'm really trying hard to understand but it is hard for me I am sooo not technical. Would you be really kind to try and answer the questions I put above if you can. Thanks so much again...Sarah

Bigcols resposes are as I would read it ;)

Col, I think what happen in my case is the turbo has uncontrolled boost, no pressure converter...the N75 is not the pressure converter but the mechnical valve. But basically no vacum to control the vanes, the MAP sensor then reads the boost at certain engine load conditons and tells the ECU to reduce the boost via the pressure converter to move the vanes to reduce boost, when the boost then does not reduce the ECU limits the revs as it has no control over the engine conditions thus slowing the car down. Different to a MAF problem where the car is just running at reduced power ;0

This is how i see it and experencing both faults with my car.

[Col]

My simple explanation on how it all works... (I could be wrong and will quite happily stand corrected)

Turbo in it s natural state with no vacuum applied is in a low boost or safe postion.

Foot goes down on pedal, ECU increases fuel to injectors, sends signal to N75 to 'open' the vacuum line.

There is a constant vacuum being generated by the tandem pump (a vacuum pump and fuel pump in one unit)

The N75 is basically and electrically controlled tap / valve, it simply opens up the vacuum line to the turbo actuator.

Once the N75 is 'open' the turbo actuator (which is a simple diaphragm) pulls the vanes on the turbo to the high boost position against the return spring pressure on the vane mechanism.

The control of this process I think is not that accurate and once the N75 is open there will be an initial spike in the boost pressure.

The ECU will open and close the N75 to regulate the boost, I'd also assume that the actuator mechasism is damped so as to smooth out some of the spikes.



What I think happens as the common overboost and subsequent limp mode problem (limp mode = limp home mode with limited fuelling and no boost) is that as the vane mechanism gets sooted up it becomes sticky and subsequently the vanes cannot freely return to the low boost angle as quickly as it should, if at all. The ECU panics and puts the car into limp mode.

A failure of the N75 could happen in two ways;

1, The N75 sticks open and therefore the vacuum line is 'open' all the time to the actuator on the turbo and will quickly result in limp mode and or an overboost fault code.

or

2, The N75 sticks shut resulting in no boost at all resulting quite obviously in an underboost fault being logged.


The N75 failure could be easily mistaken for the 'sticky' / 'sooted' up turbo problem. A simple output test with vagcom activates the N75, if you hear it click it is basically working, silence probably equals a dud.



As to your problem Sarah, either of the two N75 faults may have ocurred on your car, if you had been lucky, the replacement of the N75 would have resolved your problem (which I gather it did for a while).


A for the turbo failure, the seals do sometimes go and having thought about it, the fact that it probably wasn't spinning up to speed due to the N75 fault could have meant that the seals were effected and therefore could have accelerated their falure.

Again, I'm no expert and certainly have no qualifications !! .... I'm a builder !!!

Hopefully A8tech will see this soon and then hopefully will apply a qualified opinion.

However, whatever is posted in this thread (certainly by me) is simply supposition and should certainly only be used de facto. (Probably even got that bit of Latin wrong!)

[SportPD]

Have you had any response from the ******** yet ?

[GreatGig]

Hi Chris, thanks for your reply I have got a 2yr warranty with it though. The extra is VW's mark up on the part.

[GreatGig]

Hi Bigcol, thanks again.
The dealer is waiting for me to contact VW to ask them if they thought all the work was necessary. But I thought I would get a more unbiased and logically explanation of the work carried out by posting on here.

The problem I still have is that why didn't they diagnose the N75 and the turbo in March. Why did they let me drive it saying it was fixed after changing the air mass etc and only when I kept taking it back to them in June and July did the turbo then need replacing and then the N75 need doing? Surely I was making it worse by driving it?

[Paul Jay]

Hi Sarah

Sorry to hear about all your hassles.

Might be an idea to write a detailed complaint letter to VW GB at Milton Keynes about the way you've been treated, charged and apparently fobbed off.

They do not like to hear about this sort of thing and you might obtain some redress from them as a result.

Hope it helps.

Cheers

Paul

[NICK H]

Great Gig,did you reach a satisfactory conclusion to your situation?