Pagid Brake discs warping

[acebundi]

Hi

I bought pagid brake discs from euro parts had them fitted by a local mechanic, about a month later the car was very jerky when braking (was not smooth), was told by mechanic the discs must be warped so went back to euro parts and they replaced the discs and I had them fitted by an audi specialist this time as, 2 months later, I now have the same issue? so my question is: has anybody else had a bad batch of pagid discs or could it be an underlying issue causing the discs to warp?

[Eshrules]

Not meaning to insult, but do you make a habit of sitting on the footbrake when you've come to a stop? This can often lead to warping of the disc.

aside from that, are you sure it's the disc that's warped and not another issue at play here? Are all suspension/running components in good order?

FWIW, I ran pagid on the polo for ~5k without issue.

[warp_speed]

You need to ensure the hubs are super clean, supposedly moisture gets between the disc and hub and causing corrosion to form between the two of them. This can lead to the disk not sitting flush on the hub and warping of the brake disc - its not really warping but its an uneven transfer of brake material, in any case its normally replacement of the discs and pads.

[acebundi]

Not meaning to insult, but do you make a habit of sitting on the footbrake when you've come to a stop? This can often lead to warping of the disc.

aside from that, are you sure it's the disc that's warped and not another issue at play here? Are all suspension/running components in good order?

FWIW, I ran pagid on the polo for ~5k without issue.

Hi, I do sit with my foot on the brake peddle I will avoid that on the next set of discs I will get other components looked at too, Thanks very much for reply

[acebundi]

will make sure mechanic is aware of that. Thanks very much

[Eshrules]

I've just realised, at no point do you mention having replaced the pads.

Surely you've not fitted new discs without new pads?

[acebundi]

I've just realised, at no point do you mention having replaced the pads.

Surely you've not fitted new discs without new pads?

Hi
I have changed the pads every time the discs were changed

[BenC30]

Hi
I have changed the pads every time the discs were changed

I have the same problem did you ever find out what the problem was?

[Captain Jimbo]

I have the same problem did you ever find out what the problem was?

I have the same problem with Pagid disks and pads on my S3. There is a vibration through the steering wheel when braking and this occurred right from fitting. I contacted Euro Car Parts and they said I can send them back but they would have to be tested by Pagid before they would issue a refund and the process can take six weeks! I asked what I was supposed to do for brakes for six weeks? They said buy another set... So i did after debating whether to go for Pagid again and ended up glad I did: When I checked the run out of the first set with a dial gauge they are both between 0.04 to 0.05 mm and low and behold the replacement set are the same, at the same point on each disc too. The second set went straight back for a refund before completing the install as they were unmarked. I cannot get a figure for the run out tolerance for these discs from Euro Car Parts but I'm pretty sure that it is the run-out causing the vibration. I am now trying to decide what discs and pads to fit before sending the first set back and trying to get a refund....

[warp_speed]

Have you checked the hub surface, considering it’s at the same point as before?

Audi told me the hubs have to be super clean before fitting discs. I did debate on how you would make sure you don't remove too much material from the hub while cleaning, new hubs are expensive. They said light emery paper.

This was during a heated discussion regard the warranty for genuine brake discs I fitted and warping after 5k miles. They didn't honour it and told me I didn't clean the hubs properly.

[Captain Jimbo]

Have you checked the hub surface, considering it’s at the same point as before?

Audi told me the hubs have to be super clean before fitting discs. I did debate on how you would make sure you don't remove too much material from the hub while cleaning, new hubs are expensive. They said light emery paper.

This was during a heated discussion regard the warranty for genuine brake discs I fitted and warping after 5k miles. They didn't honour it and told me I didn't clean the hubs properly.


The hubs are perfect. What I meant by the run out is in the same place on the disc is that it literally is, on both discs, both sets, and regardless of how the discs are indexed on the hub. The point where the discs run off to the outside edge the most is about 90 degrees anticlockwise from the retaining screw hole, on all four discs I have had. So there is no question there is a 'warp' on the discs as supplied, what I don't know is if that amount of run out is definitely responsible for the vibration I get when braking. I have seen various figures for maximum disc run out for various cars, anything between 0.02mm and 0.1mm but can't find a figure for the S3.

While it is true even small imperfections on the hub can result in discs warping it does seem to be the default excuse wheeled out to avoid warranty claims. Did Audi inspect your hubs or did they just declare you 'obviously' didn't clean the hubs and fob you off?

[zollaf]

fit set of ferodo, ebc or brembo discs to it and be done with it, although if the pagids are warping like this then there may be an underlying problem. have you checked the run out on your hubs.

[Captain Jimbo]

fit set of ferodo, ebc or brembo discs to it and be done with it, although if the pagids are warping like this then there may be an underlying problem. have you checked the run out on your hubs.

Yep, that's the plan, just undecided on which brand. The Pagid discs aren't warping on the car, the second set were checked as soon as they were mounted on the hub, they came with a 0.05 mm runout. As you suggest though, I am concerned that run out may not bethat significant and there is actually an underlying problem. I checked the hubs for run out with a dial gauge too and they are fine. I guess I'm only going to know when I fit a different set.

[Doctle Odd]

Are the callipers sticking at all? are they twin pot?

[Captain Jimbo]

Are the callipers sticking at all? are they twin pot?

They are the standard single pot calipers. They are definitely not sticking / binding as wheels will turn freely after applying the brakes. I'm wondering if wear in the sliders would have an effect, combined with the run out on the discs to make the shudder? The only other thing I can think of is there is a very slight play in the hubs due the the bearings. There should be a slight amount of movement as bearings cannot have none or they would destroy themselves but I'm not sure how much 'slight' movement there should be. Anyone know a way of gauging this?

[BenC30]

I think my driverside caliper was sticking but its been replaced and the brake line still squeeks and still getting brake judder at low speed the hotter the brakes get the worse the judder

[BenC30]

They are the standard single pot calipers. They are definitely not sticking / binding as wheels will turn freely after applying the brakes. I'm wondering if wear in the sliders would have an effect, combined with the run out on the discs to make the shudder? The only other thing I can think of is there is a very slight play in the hubs due the the bearings. There should be a slight amount of movement as bearings cannot have none or they would destroy themselves but I'm not sure how much 'slight' movement there should be. Anyone know a way of gauging this?

Just spoken to this guy

CONTACT US - MOBILE ON-CAR DISC SKIMMING (http://www.discskimmers.com/7.html)

seems i have all the symptoms of my front wheel faces not being flat usually from being refurbed which they have

[zollaf]

how on earth do you work that out ? the only way the wheels wouldn't be flat is if they had been machined on the mounting face whilst being refurbed, which they don't do.

[BenC30]

Stress relieved in oven when they powedercoated makes perfect sense now because there is nothing wrong with the car its all been checked. This guys knows his stuff.

[zollaf]

never in over 20 years have i heard of that one.
when you brake, how hard do you brake and do you keep your foot on the brakes as you come to a stop.
warped wheels would show up very clearly when the tyres are fitted back on after refurbing. for a start they would wobble on the balancing machine and they would require a whole box of balance weights to balance them. if you suspect this is the fault, go to a tyre place and get them balanced, but pay attention to how the wheel spins on the machine, any wobble and yes, thats the problem. you wouldn't feel this through the pedal hough, just the steering wheel and not just when braking.

[Doctle Odd]

Just spoken to this guy

CONTACT US - MOBILE ON-CAR DISC SKIMMING (http://www.discskimmers.com/7.html)

seems i have all the symptoms of my front wheel faces not being flat usually from being refurbed which they have

How much does that service cost?

[zollaf]

about the same as a new disc costs.
handy if your discs are massive but not for most cars. a warped discs really is a bit of a myth as they actually rarely do warp, even when they have been glowing red hot. its normally when a driver gets the discs hot and then keeps his foot on the pedal as he stops, then keeps pressing. this squishes the discs out of shape. its always the fault of the disc though, never the driver. i have been driving for 25 years nearly and never actually warped a discs. i have set fire to brake pads before, but never warped a disc.

[BenC30]

Proofs in the pudding ill post back once they have been sorted and another 1k of use on them

[BenC30]

Doctle odd its 35 per disk and 15 per wheel, no point me fitting new disks again it kills them in 1000 to 1500 miles

I also have never in my life killed a set of disks

[Captain Jimbo]

I managed to kill a disk once. A Ford Orion I had the misfortune to own had a sticking caliper and before I had the chance to get it fixed it heated up the disc so much it split down the middle of the cooling webs with a rather loud bang! In a 'no stopping' zone, in rush hour, in the rain, of course...

[spartacus 68]

I have been driving for 25 years nearly and never actually warped a discs. I have set fire to brake pads before, but never warped a disc.

Completely agree. Been driving for roughly the same time, and have replaced and rebuilt brakes on various cars. Only ever had an issue with ATE parts, and that was brake pad transfer. Old B4 Audi 80 TDIs were particularly susceptible, because front discs weren't vented.

Back to OP. I never just replace discs and pads without stripping down slider pins for closer inspection. If you've got a sticky piston, then the problem will be exaggerated, as the disc is constantly hot. Couple of choices, either strip down completely and use a rebuild kit from Bigg Red and lube the piston under the new dust sleeve with a little Lockheed red grease, or opt to go for replacement calipers. Cheaper in the long run if you're fitting discs and pads on a constant basis.

Personally I'd opt for Brembo parts, you get what you pay for in my book. Lastly, change your driving style, and don't keep your foot on the brake.

[warp_speed]

The hubs are perfect. What I meant by the run out is in the same place on the disc is that it literally is, on both discs, both sets, and regardless of how the discs are indexed on the hub. The point where the discs run off to the outside edge the most is about 90 degrees anticlockwise from the retaining screw hole, on all four discs I have had. So there is no question there is a 'warp' on the discs as supplied, what I don't know is if that amount of run out is definitely responsible for the vibration I get when braking. I have seen various figures for maximum disc run out for various cars, anything between 0.02mm and 0.1mm but can't find a figure for the S3.

While it is true even small imperfections on the hub can result in discs warping it does seem to be the default excuse wheeled out to avoid warranty claims. Did Audi inspect your hubs or did they just declare you 'obviously' didn't clean the hubs and fob you off?

Yeah they showed pictures before and after. The after ones were like new hubs. But I've been changing discs on my cars for 15 years, cleaned the hubs in all of them but not to the extent that they are like new, obviously not good enough for Audi to honour the warranty. Funny thing is after 2 years the replacements were warped again and again 1 month out of warranty and they wanted another £300 for the pleasure.... No thanks I'm not spending the best part of nearly £700 on rear brake discs in a 3 year period.

[BenC30]

Said i would post back when i found the problem. The wheel hub mating face is bent, so when the wheel is torqued up it deforms the disks creating a high spot and this takes 1000 odd miles to wear a hole in the disk and create brake judder.

bit ****** as the garage said they had run a dial gauge on the hub, turns out they ran it on the disk with the wheel off (common practice in garages) because the wheel was off the disk ran straight!

So if you have judder and your garage says hub is ok they may not be checking the actual hub.

mine was 0.25mm out which is a country mile.

[warp_speed]

Said i would post back when i found the problem. The wheel hub mating face is bent, so when the wheel is torqued up it deforms the disks creating a high spot and this takes 1000 odd miles to wear a hole in the disk and create brake judder.

bit ****** as the garage said they had run a dial gauge on the hub, turns out they ran it on the disk with the wheel off (common practice in garages) because the wheel was off the disk ran straight!

So if you have judder and your garage says hub is ok they may not be checking the actual hub.

mine was 0.25mm out which is a country mile.

So new hub then?

[BenC30]

yes new hub and disk. I must just add that the disk skimmer guy was spot on, very experienced and excellent service!

[stevegrass777]

yes new hub and disk. I must just add that the disk skimmer guy was spot on, very experienced and excellent service!
He was worth having if he diagnosed the problem.
I haven't had any problems with pagid myself so was curious if it was down to them or not.
At least we have learnt the main things that cause a warped disc.

[BenC30]

Yes if anyone is having a problem he is the man for finding why! If there is a fault the severity of it will diagnose how long the car can be used before it highlights the issue. Mine was sever hence 1000 odd miles of gentle driving but maybe a minor flaw will do 10,000 before it shows up as brake judder etc

[bigwul83]

You need to ensure the hubs are super clean, supposedly moisture gets between the disc and hub and causing corrosion to form between the two of them. This can lead to the disk not sitting flush on the hub and warping of the brake disc - its not really warping but its an uneven transfer of brake material, in any case its normally replacement of the discs and pads.


Hi warp_speed

Please see attached link

Please Help OBDII fault code P0322 & P0688 Showing on 2001 - S6 Quattro (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?161264-OBDII-fault-code-P0322-amp-P0688-Showing-on-2001-S6-Quattro)

I was recommended to see if there was someone close to me with the VCDS SCANNING SOFTWARE??

If you could possibly help me out id appreciate that, I'm based in Penicuik?

[snapdragon]

How to clean hub face
Disc Brakes Australia | Page Not Found - Disc Brakes Australia (http://www.dba.com.au/tech-article-t026-brake-shudder-–-hat-type-disc-rotors/)