V6 TDI Swirl Control

[Phil A]

Hi Guys and Gals,
Picked up an '08 Treg last month and all was going well, including a visit to Cornwall with kids and dog, but last week the Engine Management light came on the dash.

A friend has a stand alone scanner, and the car was reporting:
P2008 Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit Open, Bank 1.

A bit of research ensued and showed that this related to air charge control, which pointed to the swirl flaps. Sure enough, bank 1 connecting rod between motor and flaps had come loose at the bottom joint. VW Norwich are saying upper manifold complete, £491 + VAT for the part!!!!

Surely there must be a cheaper, DIY alternative to this? Has anyone found one, before I pull it apart and attempt repair?

Update
It looks as though you can buy ball and socket joints and threaded rod through RS Componants and other outlets.
If i do this and effect a repair, will the stepper motors need resetting via VAG Com or similar, or will the ECU calculate the motor position from the flap position?

Any help gratefully received.

[paul1964]

Have you fixed it ? if not could they be gotten rid of altogether

[Crasher]

Nope, no alternative to a new part and the part they have recommended will normally not cure it, the complete manifold will be required. I cant give you the price as I am not at work and I could do with your engine code as well.

[Phil A]

I've now made a prototype control rod to replace the existing one with the worn end, when I get around to fitting it, I'll post more info with pictures etc and let you know if it works.

So far as I'm aware, you can't remove this cicuit completely, as the ECU will always be looking for feedback regarding the position of the flaps, and will flag an alarm if it doesn't get it.

I'll keep you posted.

[wjam]

I look forward to seeing the DIY fix. Crasher is simply incorrect to say you must buy the whole manifold. Unless you go to Audi of course... There is NO sensors within the manifold. Assuming the manifold has it's normal range of movement then the only thing that the ECU checks is the start and stop position as per the linkage. If (once) the rod end bearing (crappy plastic snap fit) wears the tolerance goes out of spec and you get a MIL. I repaired mine with a used motor and rod from ebay.de. I used just the rod and it's worked fine for nearly a year.. But I knew it wouldn't last forever and the errors are starting to show their head again.

I saw a quick and easy DIY fix on a Norwegian site which involves adding adhesive aluminium tape to the worn rod end opening to take up the slack... I just did it like 1 hour ago. The motor immediately referenced and MIL goes out.

On a German forum they were cutting the old tie rod and making it adjustable. Like this one : http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rod-end-bearings/1988973/ but that would mean lifting off the motor and the manifold to have them machined to accept the new tie rod. It would last forever though.

I am now looking to see if VDO sell the tie rod separately. Or any VDO motor vendor. This sort of stuff is usually available in the US. Might be worth looking up VW spares over the pond


Even better would be to replace the crappy plastic one with a proper I think it is nothing short of profiteering that Audi and others want to change the whole thing for a small fortune for want of a 5 euro tie rod.

[wjam]

Forgot to say.. the tolerance is 2%... If someone had the tooling to set up the motor (referencing) / or some way to make the ECU expect 10% tolerance then I think you would never get a MIL in the lifetime of the motor.

That must be do-able, and it would have approx zero effect on performance.

As I said elsewhere on the forms. I'd simply disable them (open) if I could remove the MIL or fool the ECU to think they were there

All the BMW guys throw the stupid flaps in the bin (mostly cos theirs were falling into the engine :confused:)

[Crasher]

Crasher is simply incorrect to say you must buy the whole manifold.

Unless you want to spend time bodging it with aluminium tape or making up your own linkage then there is no alternative to replacing the lower section of the manifold.

[a8 tech]

Forgot to say.. the tolerance is 2%... If someone had the tooling to set up the motor (referencing) / or some way to make the ECU expect 10% tolerance then I think you would never get a MIL in the lifetime of the motor.

That must be do-able, and it would have approx zero effect on performance.

As I said elsewhere on the forms. I'd simply disable them (open) if I could remove the MIL or fool the ECU to think they were there

All the BMW guys throw the stupid flaps in the bin (mostly cos theirs were falling into the engine :confused:)

i have the tool and the software to reset but often the manifold is required complete

[wjam]

I'm saying it is a disgrace to have a 900 euro part (my quote) only available when everyone knows the linkage is the problem , which should cost a fiver. i'd even pay 20..

By the way, My bodge worked for a year. My next "bodge" will fix it. That will be remove completely or make an adjustable linkage.

[Phil A]

Finally got around to fixing the problem.
I'd tried model shops to get replacement ball and socket joints, but the lower one on the flaps control cam is an odd size, 6.6mm, so decided to go the RS route. Purchased M6 Ball and socket joint for the top (Motor) end (RS 689401), and M5 for the bottom end (RS 689394), and made up a replacement control rod from a length of 6mm steel rod.

Using a small bending machine I had, I put a 20mm Offset in the rod, threaded both ends M6, then filed one end down again (the thread acted as a guide), and re-cut it with M5.

From measuring the existing control rod, the length between centres was 99mm, so the ball and socket joints were screwed on to replicate this measurement.1484014841

As can be seen, the ball is missing from the M6 end, as this is 10mm diameter, and snaps straight on to the motor, and is retained by the safety locking pin.

Next, the offending Inlet manifold top half had to be removed.

After removing the engine cover, the Air Charge ducting was removed by unscrewing the 13xTx30 machine screws (two different lengths) and the 5mm Allen screw securing the throttle body to allow movement, and carefully manoeuvering it out and away.
14843

Next the wiring harness running across the manifolds was moved out of the way, by cutting the tie wraps and lifting the plastic support away, and the 3xTx30 machine screws removed so the the stepper motor could be unplugged, and lifted off the manifold.

The fuel lines from the HP pump to the left bank accumulator, and connecting pipe to the right bank accumulator were also removed to a safe, clean place, and small bags with bands placed over the stubs to prevent ingress of dirt, which would invariably mess badly with the injectors!!

The 8x5mm Allen screws can then be removed, and with a bit of fiddling, the plastic manifold top can be carefully pried and removed from the alloy half of the manifold.

Now the offending control cam, with the 6.6mm ball can be seen, and by removing the metal circlip, can be withdrawn from the housing (note its orientation before doing so).
14844

I then cut off the ball from the cam, filed it flat and drilled a 4mm hole, tapped it M5 and screwed in the metal ball from the M5 ball and socket joint.

I then temporarily fitted the motor to the housing, to ensure correct and inimpeded movement, then removed the motor again as this is required to re-install the housing to the manifold.
14845

Replacement was then simply a reversal of the stripdown procedure, ensuring that all mating surfaces were clean before reassembly.

Once the manifold top half was bolted down, the stepper motor was replaced, and the new connecting rod ball joint snapped in place, and the securing pin restored.
The fuel lines were replaced, ensuring no dirt got in, and the Air Charge ducting replaced, again ensuring mating surfaces were clean, and the wiring loom re-tie wrapped, and any multi-plugs removed were replaced.

Then came the moment of truth!! After a bit of prolonged cranking (fuel charging presumably) the motor started, and by watching the control rods, the stepper motors were doing their thing, closing the flaps when at idle, opening as revs increased.

The ECU warning light (MIL) didn't go out on its own, and after running the car around for a few days, I went back out to my mates garage and we reset it via his scanner.

The car has now been run around for another week or so, with no reccurance of the problem so hopefully its fixed!!

Sorry for the long response, I wanted to make you aware that you seemingly DONT need to spend £500+ on parts, provided you have some workshop tools and a bit of engineering know-how. This procedure wasn't hard, and probably took about 2 hours.
Incidentally, I did have a look at Bank 2, as I thought this would also be worn, but as the motor works to 'pull' the control rod when closing the flaps, the movement does not wear the joints to the same degree.

I have had to limit pictures, due to posting rules, but if anyone wants any more detailed info, let me know and i'll try to help.

Cheers,

Phil

[wjam]

Phil,

That's a top job. I am going to just do the top half for now. 10mm end. I have a spare tie rod to butcher

For some reason That side seems to have the most play, but this is the way to do it (should be done) on a "high quality car"

It's a pity there's no aftermarket fit for this mod.

By the way the MIL would go out eventually by itself. It seems it doesn't re-set immediately the fault is removed. Probably to ensure fear is struck into the hearts of all owners so that they go sprinting to the nearest VW/Audi dealer to needlessly spend money. Any way I do clear the codes after I apply an adjustment so as not to get confused.

Good work! :arms:

WJAM

[wjam]

I forgot to ask.. Looking at the lower cam it looks like you could remove that in situe (assuming you can keep it's position.)

Would that be right? Just remove the circlip??

thanks

WJAM

[Crasher]

I am surprised that some enterprising company has not brought out a rebuild kit.

[wjam]

I'm surprised too. It covers all the 3.0tdis and a few more I'm sure

I've just placed my order at RS

WjAM

[paul1964]

Cheap Quality solution thats what we like to see

[TheMatador]

Great post, thanks Phil A.


Forgot to say.. the tolerance is 2%... If someone had the tooling to set up the motor (referencing) / or some way to make the ECU expect 10% tolerance then I think you would never get a MIL in the lifetime of the motor.

That must be do-able, and it would have approx zero effect on performance.

This is where I focussed my early attempts before giving in and getting both sides replaced. Having done a lot of work with Siemens plcs lately I'm tempted to revisit the issue - its probably just a straightforward modbus connection...

[a8 tech]

like i said, i have the tool for the manifold motor and the turbo plus vas version 19

I wouldn't use your kit because if it fails then I would be paying for the manifold as you have no warranty and I have no time to fit parts unproven then have a private job come back on me with a reputation to keep its not for me but looks ok

I'm not one for this kind of thing and experience tells me do it right or don't do it

If you were local I would reset the settings for you out of interest

[TheMatador]

Thanks for the offer - too late now though as I got both sides replaced with genuine parts (noticed that the design has since been modified). Have you ever cleared this error before by increasing the range/error tolerance on any VDO positioners?

[Phil A]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I forgot to ask.. Looking at the lower cam it looks like you could remove that in situe (assuming you can keep it's position.)

Would that be right? Just remove the circlip??<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hi Wjam,

Yup, I think you probably could, though getting it back would be a fiddle as there is limited space to replace the circlip. Would save a load of aggro tho!

Phil

[ditcha]

I have the same problem with my q7, looks a good repair Phil, I am looking at tackling the problem in a slightly different way which I hope I will not have to remove the manifold.

I am in the process of having a 12mm dia x 20mm lg piece of round bar and putting a 4.1mm square hole through the middle length ways I am then going to put 2 M3 grub screw holes through the side to meet the 4.1mm square hole then cut the existing arm in half then push the two halfs in each end of the 12mm dia sleeve adjust then lock with the grub screws. Hopefully this will do the trick I will post pictures each if it works

[mhobson]

Phil,

What a very helpful, excellent post. I have read that others have had manifolds changed and costs of £2K mentioned. I wonder how many miles they would have to drive to recoup the cost in diesel saving.

My fault codes are P2008 and P2011 which refers to banks 1a and 2a so there may be more for me to do.

Since you did the repair have you noticed an improvement in fuel consumption? My car runs fine I just have to look at that little yellow light, and I can do 35mpg, but we are out in the sticks.

I now have to get my head around the technology of twin tuned inlet manifolds, things seem to have progressed a bit since the Morris Minor.

Regards, Michael

[Phil A]

Nice one Ditcha, let us know how you get on.

Always more than one way to skin a cat.

[Phil A]

Thanks Michael.

Yes, looks like both sides. Tho to be fair, once the bits are off to get to the motors, and the new rods are made up, it woudn't take that much more time.
Its interesting that Bank two is playing up as well on yours, as this is further away from the hot turbo, which seems to cause the early demise on bank one.
Have the control rods parted company completely, or is there just play in the linkage?

No, no discernable difference in economy, about 30 on a motorway run, 25 round town. I was just concerned that the swirl flaps were stuck closed (which they were), impeding air flow to the cylinders.

No, she ain't no Moggie, but economy's probably about the same, just 160 or so bhp better!!

Phil

[mhobson]

Hello Phil,

No I am only at the early stages, I came up with your thread after I found the fault codes and did a search, and have not given the engine a look yet. My wife has an A4 Cab with the same engine but as yet no fault codes. Her car OK much lighter than my Allroad usually does better than 40 mpg (with either of us driving), the last tank on my car only did 29 mpg (we live in a rural area with no traffic jams), both cars have 6 speed manual boxes (extremely rare in France on an Allroad, they are usually tiptronic), and whereas the tailpipes on the A4 are clean as a whistle, there is soot on mine so it cannot be burning the fuel efficiently. It should have been more efficient than my last A6 estate which was a 2.5tdi and that usually did about 37mpg.

I will update you when I find out more, but thanks again for a very illuminating post.

Regards,

Michael

[reeshenry57]

Great job Phil, but did you actually cure the problem? My A6 Advant has had Bank 1 replaced in (Feb 2010) and now needs Bank2 fixing; remembering that 1 is on the driver's side and 2 passenger side. I have read many forum pages and there's a lot of confusion!!!!

My car certainly has wear at the bottom ball-loint bearing which is of a different design to Bank 1. Diagnostics shows that the Duty cycle for Bank2 has an error of 8% ergo 80% demanded and 88% achieved. Although I see slackness in the mechanical parts; it would appear that the error code is Electrical and therefore the Motor needs replacing? My concern is that AUDI recommend the Manifold, motor and push-rod to be repalced to cure a raft of design errors and yes the parts price can be high, as much as £450 depending on where you buy!!! Worth looking on Ebay as NEW Assy can be sourced but check ASSY Part Numbers!! Latest TBC

Bank 1 059 129 712BL (Right)
Bank 2 059 129 711 CG (Left) - when viewing fwd from within car.


Qs -
Surely the Motor can be adjusted electronically to compensate for mechanical wear?
AUDI should be doing more to assist owners!
Crap design for a sub-system installed to improve fuel economy and yet costs through-life 10 times more then the savings!
Watch out for old parts being sold on Ebay!

[big]

Phil, thanks.
I have just bought the bits from RS. Worth giving this a go before resorting to the expensive fix.

How did the person earlier in this thread work out that there was a 2% tolerance in the software before it throws an MIL. If you can work that out, does it mean that you can change it?

BTW, having read this thread I think the motor I bought off e-bay and returned as "not-working" might actually have been fine, it's the rod that's worn.
Cheers, Rob

[mhobson]

Hello again Phil,

I have to say that I am a bit mystified. Have checked the linkages and they seem fine, no noticeable up/down play, compared them to the engine in my wife's car which has no fault codes, and if anything they seem tighter on mine (my car 171000km/106000mls, my wife's 122000km/75600mls). The motors on a generally grubby engine seem very bright and clean and I wonder if they have already been changed. On revving the engine a bit the right hand side lever moved but the left didn't, so I thought that maybe the left motor was U/S but then when I watched when the ignition was turned on, both motors cycled open and closed so the motors must be OK. When I checked my wife's car (engine cold) both motors cycled open/closed when turning on ignition but when revved neither side opened, maybe that was because the engine was not up to temperature. When I deleted the engine codes on my car they immediately came back on. Is it likely that a sensor needs changing?

Does anyone have any bright ideas?

I look forward to hearing from you,

regards, Michael

[reeshenry57]

I think you need to remove each push-rod in turn and make sure that the bottom arms are free to move and each side requires the same amount of force.

My understanding is that the system is biased to the swirl flaps being Open and the motors drive the flaps Shut!

Also please confirm that your Left and Right are looking from the inside of the car; ergo the Left is the drivers side!

Once you know that the swirl-flaps and push-rods are not causing any delay to the motor pulse that is a demanded pulse should be achieved within the designed time then your fault lies with the Motor.

If you are sure that the bottom bearings within the bottom manifold are healthy then you should in my opinion be able to replace the motor alone, but will need to find a VAG Garage that has the STW tool to set up the motor! Why a new motor does not come as a Plug and Go replacement is obvious but a example of how POOR Audi are and serves to prove how they rip-off their customers.

Also, check that the pluds are connected firmly as others have found that loose pins have caused the feedback signal to generate a MIL condition!

I ahve tried to engage with ECU people to see if the 2% tolerance wrt Demande and Achieved signals can be altered or the faults from Flap-Valve position rendered as a Hidden fault! No joy and AUDI again could have designed the swirl-flap position to have been logged only as they have for other more serious codes that the owner can't reset with say a Autel VAG 405 tool.

Good luck, my A6 Avant 3.0 Tdi will probably need Bank 2 replacing at a cost of £651, the driver's side Bank 1 has previously been repalced.

AUDI should be ashamed!!! What a crap system that was designed to improve fuel efficiency, my ***!

[Crasher]

It isn't just Audi, the BMW system gets sucked in and totals the engine.

[mhobson]

Hello, Both bottom cranks seem to move as easily as each other, similar pressure on the units on my wife's car.

I mean left and right when looking into the engine compartment, my car being LHD the turbo is on the passengers side. The default position on both cars is left hand side as you look at the car crank in the down position and on the right hand bank, crank in the up position. The motors move both freely when you turn the ignition on and return to their initial orientation.

I have been able to remove both electrical connectors from the left hand motor and they seem clean but to remove the connector from the right hand side I would need to unbolt and raise the motor itself as there is not enough space to push the retaining clip on the connector.

Surely if both motors are cycling (opening and closing, or as you suggest closing then opening) when you turn on the ignition, surely the motors are working?

I attach a photo of the engine, you can see how much cleaner the manifold motors are than the rest of the engine. I think they may have been replaced recently.

15029

Regards,

Michael

[reeshenry57]

So many threads that one gets confused!
I do not believe that the main cause of failure is the push-rod and also believe that a AUDI garage could sort this out electronically by using a software upgrade and special VAG tool to adjust demanded and achieved signals.
I also find it hard to accept that the manifold bottom bearing is a major fault unless the flaps themselves are bent or control-rod is binding causing a delay in the feedback.
Finally I would not buy from AUDI as you can get the manifold assy from Germany cheaper than the UK. Only problem being the need to trim control signals to reset MIL. Some assy may come without the need for a special tool.

What we need is a champion (Mr Wilson or TOP Gear) to take this up with AUDI.

The whole business stinks and when you phone AUDI and raise a CASE as I did you get nowhere because AUDI have to accept that there is a problem. Nobody that I have spoken to (females) accepts that there is a problem and actually state that AUDI technical say there are NO problems! What a Joke!!!!!!!

[Crasher]

Nobody that I have spoken to (females) accepts that there is a problem

Tread carefully old boy, there are laws not just forum rules.

[mhobson]

I have been thinking, difficult in my case.

Once I bought a Mercedes Vito 110CDI and it never ran well and used a lot of fuel. Eventually when I put a code reader on it it was showing a faulty air mass sensor but the seller had changed the air mass sensor not long before I bought it. I just cleared the codes and it ran like a different vehicle, fast and much less fuel.

Could it be with my car that someone has changed the flap motors, as I said they look very clean compared to the rest of the engine with hardly any noticeable wear on the lever pivots, and when the ignition is turned on they both throw the bottom cams to the limit of their travel, but they have not had the appropriate electronic equipment to set the motors up correctly?

Another thing I was wondering, is the wear (which mine does not seem to have) on each end of the operating lever which Phil has replaced so cunningly, caused by a worn bearing on the bottom crank where it pivots in the manifold. If so would it not in time cause a leakage of inlet pressure. My experience of bearing wear, like on water pumps for example is that it starts slowly but increases exponentially and can cause a lot of problems.

I am worried that if I were to take the car to Audi they would just change the manifolds and motors without considering other options except their profit. My experience of VAG in France has not been very reassuring to date. (they wanted to change a turbo when it was just a vacuum pipe come adrift)

It is very tempting just to pull the connection off the MIL light.

Michael

[mhobson]

Here I am again,

Just took the car to Audi Poitiers. As I said before there is no play in the linkages, both flap motors have been recently changed and both linkages move up and down to their stops, I can see no play in the crank bearing, nonetheless Audi want to replace both manifolds (and 'vannes' French, I think it means something like flow regulator) at a cost of 1905 Euros, they have not said what is wrong with the manifolds. Is this likely to be because the swirl flaps have stuck? I have heard of people removing cleaning and replacing the original manifolds, Is this realistic and if not, if I brought the car to the UK is it still likely to cost as much? Do the motors and sensors have to be recalibrated electronically after removal and replacement.

It seems a lot of money to spend, the car runs fine, maybe uses a little more fuel than it should, is it likely to develop worse symptoms.

I am sure you are all fed up with my posts on this subject, but I really do not know what to do.

Regards,

Michael

[andymac2]

I posted this over on the a6 thread as I have this on my a6 3.0.... but I also have a 5.0 touareg so on browsing here I thought is cross post what I succeeded on doing on the a6
Hi I have an a6 3.0 tdi.. I have had this problem for two months now..

Some of you may now me from many years ago on the uk-mivs forum I was one of the guys who fixed the mkiv golf fan failure, again another senseless vw part that cost hundreds to replace...

I can confirm that if you add at least 3-4mm of washers to effectively move the motor further away from the manifold then the fault will go away...
from spending 48 hours on this problem I have found the the system is actually more intelligent than we we think.. the problem appears to be when you start the engine the stepper motor opens the manifold fully, on closing it realises it cannot move the full way.. it registers a fault and then wont work.
I have experimented with moving it 3 mm all the way to 8-9 mm and it doesnt matter on the distance it will still perform a full cyce at start and synch itself, howvere due to the spacers it can now cycle the flaps the full amount, hence no error and no mil..

However your linkages cant be too worn and the flaps should be working and not too loose or broken.

Another way to achieve this would be shorten the control ----- however I wouldnt want to do this with no spare or replacments available..

Put it this way there is nothing to loose in doing his as it cannot damage anything.

Again this is an easy fix with 6,9, or 12 aproriately sized washers

Please feel free to make this sticky..

[wjam]

Hi Mhobson,

I wouldn't recommend spending anything with Audi unless it's a part you need and you know you need it...(esp in france) they appear to have a profiteering policy and refuse to accept any information you might give them.. That's my experience of them.

they refused to fix the problem i asked them to because there was this manifold motor issue. They insisted that I accept their quote for the fault I wanted fixed plus the manifolds. When I refused they then blocked all future claims on my extended 3rd party warranty by keeping the case open for the life of the warranty. How's that for customer service.
Anyway if the motors are not referenceing they stay in the open position and cause no noticeable difference in performance (OK they seem to help at low speed a little in pickup, and marginally on the mpg if you spend a lot of time in urban driving, but open road = zero difference)

Andymac... Nice work.. I never considered placing washers under the motor DUH! However my 120 euro new motor is working a treat for 1 week now.

cheers
wjam

[Burfy]

Hi guys, I looked at my linkages on the manifolds whilst the engine was idling and the one nearest to the dpf (N/S) this was wobbling mainly at the bottom ball joint........ I'm expecting this will fall off soon, saw a guy on here that had made his own links from metal!!! why didnt Audi do this.......... After sales profits on spares i think

Thanks for reading... Regards Andy

[Crasher]

This is the VAG video of the problem


http://youtu.be/l3Fn4caRQuM

[Burfy]

This is the VAG video of the problem


http://youtu.be/l3Fn4caRQuM

This has been badly designed by vag

[rafletcher]

I am surprised that some enterprising company has not brought out a rebuild kit.

Resurrecting an old thread.... It's possible they have..... Fontain Audi of Iver in Bucks apparently (I've not called them, but someone else on the A6 forum has) do a "fix" with new linkage for around £250 per bank. I've been lucky - bought my A6 3.0l Quattro only 5 weeks ago (non-franchise dealer) and 2 weeks later the MIL light was on, diagnosed as flap failure. Dealer has paid for both banks to be replaced this time, but next time I'll be off to Fontaines for their input.

[Crasher]

More info required there then, mind you it is not THAT much of an issue.

[snapdragon]

Shortly after this therad in 2012, Audi released a repair kit 059198212
I put that here for people finding with google. It is ~£12 per cylinder bank.

[mhobson]

I bought a couple of repair kits, never used them, still sitting on my bench. When the same problem arose with my wife's 3.0 tdi A4 cab, I bought a pair of refurbished manifolds c/w motors and reinforced bearings off ebay cost less than £400, job done. This fault should be down to Audi but of course they are not interested, similarly with the fault in the electronic unit on the steering column, bad design, poor parts which the Audi garages happily charge over £2000 to replace