tuning box gremlins?

[julianm]

Just joined today maybe i can get some pointers on a problem ?
Have a mk iv tdi 115 recently fitted with a "tuning box" no obvious problems prior to fitting.After fitting i now find that when reaching a certain speed in fifth or sixth gear what i assume is limp mode is activated.
(marked loss of power)
Switching the ignition off/on clears the fault and full power is returned.
This is the second unit i have tried so assume it is a fault on my car?
Tech. people at manufacturer suspect turbo over boost.
Is limp mode being activated because of the power increase? no loss of power is evident in standard trim at any speed.
From searching through the threads a split/punctured hose could be responsible any other possibilities?
:confused:

[tsunami]

Is the tuning box a well branded one or is it one off ebay or like?

[Eshrules]

ok, i might be being a bit blunt here, but had i fitted something to my car and then my car became faulty... guess what id do first, thats right, take the part off.

get the tuning box off, first of all. (i can only assume it is a cheapy of eBay? :confused: )

next thing to do , is check all hoses for boost leaks, listen for any excess air at idle, you could have something as simple as a leaky boost pipe, the braided ones.

there is the slim chance that your turbo could be clogged up, the vanes are sticking or the vane actuator could be sticking, but id go with the first few suggestions first....:beerchug:

[tsunami]

ok, i might be being a bit blunt here, but had i fitted something to my car and then my car became faulty... guess what id do first, thats right, take the part off.


AMEN TO THAT! :D

[julianm]

Blunts ok.....Assumptions not.
The unit is branded (£380) not off e-bay!!
It has been returned for testing and found to be ok.
Its not going back on the car until i find out what triggered "limp mode" your advice will hopefully be useful in pinpointing the problem.
Thanks :p

[Gee]

Is this similair to the type of tuning box i bought from ebay?

Paid around £30 for it and was slightly jubious about fitting it but judjing by the positive feedback and the knowledge of the seller i thought id give it a go!

Anyway wacked it on and the car was a bag of *****, despite having eratic revs in idle, a flat spot a thousand miles long the car would'nt even go! took the <removed> off immediately and tossed it in the bin.

How can these people sell these pieces of <removed> and blatently lie?

[julianm]

Think not
Been totally happy with the "box" no flat spots ,increased torque,smooth power band, then it hits 104 (allegedly) and the limp modde kicks in ....bummer! Having a diagnostic check/service tues hope to get it sorted.
cheers;)

[oaktreegarage]

inside your potentiometer/variable resistor casing,sorry tuning box casing there is generaly a screw,turn it anti clockwise a little then test drive,repeat this till your car stops kicking limp mode in,even fancy van aaken boxes can be adjusted the same,ive done this to a few customers cars with same problems.Cheers simon









Think not
Been totally happy with the "box" no flat spots ,increased torque,smooth power band, then it hits 104 (allegedly) and the limp modde kicks in ....bummer! Having a diagnostic check/service tues hope to get it sorted.
cheers;)

[The Muts Nuts]

Is this similair to the type of tuning box i bought from ebay?

Paid around &#163;30 for it and was slightly jubious about fitting it but judjing by the positive feedback and the knowledge of the seller i thought id give it a go!

Anyway wacked it on and the car was a bag of *****, despite having eratic revs in idle, a flat spot a thousand miles long the car would'nt even go! took the <removed> off immediately and tossed it in the bin.

How can these people sell these pieces of <removed> and blatently lie?

Because people still buy them............

[Eshrules]

Blunts ok.....Assumptions not.
The unit is branded (£380) not off e-bay!!
It has been returned for testing and found to be ok.
Its not going back on the car until i find out what triggered "limp mode" your advice will hopefully be useful in pinpointing the problem.
Thanks :p

we are so used to seeing this stupid resistor 'tuning boxes' popping up here that we make assumptions now. fair play to you if it is a 'proper' tuning box, although i still have reservations about putting a tuning box on my car that has not been tested on my car.

one thing you have to bear in mind is that these will contain standard maps for the golf mk4 1.9 tdi and whichever engine it has been applied to. it will not have been tested nor adapted to any of your own cars 'quirks' as such, it can cause issues.

i think the comment above about adjusting it will be reducing the level of boost being generated, this could be the cause of the limp mode. you have to remember, you will not always see an immediate effect when a problematic part is fitted.

eg K&N oil panel filters, these are well known to foul your MAF, but you would not see this for perhaps a few 1000 miles.

you dont say if you have tried running the car without the tuning box, to see if it still enters limpmode, perhaps this could be tried?

i think the diagnostic is likely to simply show an overboost situation, which we have already established but i am doubtful as to any other part being faulty, id seriously consider whether the tuning box you have is having a positive effect on your car. :beerchug:

[p-torque.co.uk]

I'm afraid even ''proper'' tuning boxes still only change 1 factor.......fuelling.

A good re-map is much better for an engine. Usually over 10 maps are adjusted, ensuring not only a power hike, but smooth even delivery without stress on the fuel pump.

[ini]

Oaktreegarage's advice is spot on.

If you experience 'warp field collapse' from your tuning box, turn it down until the problem does not occur.

[julianm]

inside your potentiometer/variable resistor casing,sorry tuning box casing there is generaly a screw,turn it anti clockwise a little then test drive,repeat this till your car stops kicking limp mode in,even fancy van aaken boxes can be adjusted the same,ive done this to a few customers cars with same problems.Cheers simon


I have tried different "jumper" settings and found that does not make any difference at all,didn't notice if there was a screw but will check when the box is returned.
Have those customers been happy with boxes after adjustment?

Thanks for your advice.
Julian

[julianm]

Take your point about stupid resistor boxes.
Perhaps if i'd joined the forum before rather than after i may have decided on a different mod. Anyway thats with hindsight (wonderful thing).Not sure if i can ask for refund/return at this point.
I'll keep you posted on the outcome which is likely to be a few more days yet.
:beerchug:

[oaktreegarage]

www.p-torque.co.uk (http://www.p-torque.co.uk/) has same view as myself - these are at best an 'interference device' to trick sensors into raising fuel,more fuel equals more boost which at times excedes safety levels/required boost levels set in the ecu's engine map(s) to answer your question yes customer is generaly happy when i stop the limp mode engagement,on the other hand if they take up my offer of trying a remap to (compared to their tuning box ) 99 percent of customers choose to leave the remap on,dont get me wrong Van Aaken and a few other companies boxes can give good results,but in my eyes its still just tricking the management to run richer just varied over the rev range,and these 'quality boxes' are usualy dearer than a good generic remap anyway! true you can take a box off to sell the car,but i think you'll find most tuners will return your car to std for selling purposes (if he did the map in the first place) i keep every customers original file named with their registration number so it regains its ORIGINAL file if needed,cheers simon







I have tried different "jumper" settings and found that does not make any difference at all,didn't notice if there was a screw but will check when the box is returned.
Have those customers been happy with boxes after adjustment?

Thanks for your advice.
Julian

[oaktreegarage]

Regards jumpers - DO NOT SWAP THEM ABOUT UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT EFFECT IT WILL HAVE,not being funny but ive seen companies that use same box for a range of totaly different models and you could do some proper damage! you can always put the box back on e bay as 'almost new' and get it mapped somewhere,i know its no fun realising you may have took the wrong avenue when trying to get an end result no matter what the subject,it happens to the best of us ,



'He who makes no mistakes doesn't make anything..'









I have tried different "jumper" settings and found that does not make any difference at all,didn't notice if there was a screw but will check when the box is returned.
Have those customers been happy with boxes after adjustment?

Thanks for your advice.
Julian

[oaktreegarage]

I'm afraid even ''proper'' tuning boxes still only change 1 factor.......fuelling.

A good re-map is much better for an engine. Usually over 10 maps are adjusted, ensuring not only a power hike, but smooth even delivery without stress on the fuel pump.




And a proper remap will be better than a tuning box with regards to stressing the real achilles heel on the TDI - the clutch........

[julianm]

I seem to be learning a lot in a short space of time since joining the forum...look before you leap springs to mind!:Blush:
Anyway the dirty deed has been done.
Thanks for the advice regarding the jumpers.
Should things not turn out as i had hoped i may well be paying you a visit!!

Thanks again
Julian

[TDiBoraSam]

To continue the above post...

A few years ago I fitted a Tuning Box (PSI) to a Citroen C5 HDi. This was a box from a reputable seller costing £350. I took it off almost straightaway and got a refund.

Acceleration was lumpy and uneven. It caused flatspots, and countless error codes to be logged. As soon as I took it out, the car was fine again.

All these boxes do is modify the signal to the MAF, ie by intercepting and amplifying the MAF signal it fools the ECU into throwing more fuel into the cylinders, thus giving potential for increased power (done in a very crude way).

The only way to tune your car reliably is to get it remapped, this ensures that you can tailor the tuning to your requirements, and it will take into account the individual quirks of your car's engine. No two engines are exactly the same.
If plugging in a simple box in 15 mins to achieve 20% more bhp and torque seems too good to be true, it because it is.
Also, when tuning a car, be careful not to overtune and end up causing damage to clutch, driveshaft and gearbox. The extra power and torque from tuning can easily put additional stresses on these components, beyond what they are designed to cope with. Tuning by box makes this worse as they are such crude items..basically a gimmick.
Engines are always designed to be tuned a bit below the maximum output they can theoretically cope with, this is to ensure reliability and longevity. Tuning simply uses up the 'tolerance' designed into the engine output by the manufacturer.

[julianm]

Yeh thats the one.
Have not experienced flat spots or lumpy acceleration but the error codes seem to be the most common problem with the boxes.
There is improved economy over standard and a significant torque increase but as you point out it is a crude delivery.
Given what i now know i agree with you about the preferred route to a performance upgrade.
Thanks for your input.:beerchug:

[julianm]

If you've been following this thread........
The car has been serviced and turbo hoses checked also asked the mechanic to do a diagnostic check.
Everything has checked out ok no error codes logged.:(
A "snap on" scanner was used for the diagnostics.
I am now awaiting a response from the supplier as to what happens next.
I would be interested to know if the scanner used is capable of reading all the codes ?? (not being a technical guy myself)

cheers

[The Muts Nuts]

Smile sweetly at someone on here who has VAGCOM(or offer a drink?) and see if there's anyone close who will read them for you.

[julianm]

Good advice ....i'm onto it now thanks.
Love the signature ...for someone so young!!
:beerchug:

[Eshrules]

Good advice ....i'm onto it now thanks.
Love the signature ...for someone so young!!
:beerchug:

whos on to it :p remember.... strongbow and plenty of it ;)

[julianm]

whos on to it :p remember.... strongbow and plenty of it ;)

Couldn't go anywhere else when you've been so helpful could i !!:biglaugh:
Is that the strong dry type ??
I'll be there as agreed.
:beerchug:
Would you believe i've been sent a brand new box!!:(
Have to give 'em top marks for that.
Think possibly box amplifies an existing problem but we should be able to identify that with your software.
See you soon.

[Eshrules]

Couldn't go anywhere else when you've been so helpful could i !!:biglaugh:
Is that the strong dry type ??
I'll be there as agreed.
:beerchug:
Would you believe i've been sent a brand new box!!:(
Have to give 'em top marks for that.
Think possibly box amplifies an existing problem but we should be able to identify that with your software.
See you soon.

strong dry type? it goes with blackcurrent.... thats all that matters LOL

as for the box, leave it of for now mate, until we've taken a look at the ems system anyway and seen what engine codes have been thrown up....

remember im fairly novice with the system so ill only be able to do so much :Blush2:

[Eshrules]

only code found was 17957 P1549 Boost Pressure Contr.Valve Short to Ground

it would appear the fault only presents itself, once the tuning box is fitted, although a new N75 valve has been fitted to the car.....

i've told Julian to try running the car with the tuning box fitted and if it enters into limp mode again, to bob it back to me and i will read what new code(s) have been thrown up...

i have a very nasty feeling the small fortune that's been spent on the tuning box and new N75 has been in vain :(

p.s. cheers for the strongbow ;)

[julianm]

Cheers mate we'll see how it goes then i'll report back.:beerchug:
Be interesting to see what happens.
Thanks for running the scan.

[julianm]

You guessed right carl......limp mode kicked in same speed.:zx11:
Waiting for supplier to get back to me at the moment as he suggested changing the N75.
May want to come back to yours & see if error code is the same...
Any other ideas apart from the obvious refund??

[julianm]

P.S. there is no adjustment screw on/ in this box

[Eshrules]

You guessed right carl......limp mode kicked in same speed.:zx11:
Waiting for supplier to get back to me at the moment as he suggested changing the N75.
May want to come back to yours & see if error code is the same...
Any other ideas apart from the obvious refund??

it sounds to me as though its a poor map.... if the car has been running fine without that box on and now its not.....

i cant beleive he tried to blame the N75 to be honest.....

scream trading standards if he doesnt budge and tell him you've had the car on a real time diagnostic machine and there is nothing wrong with the car, apart from when you put the box on.

by all means, bring it back down and ill code read it again for you ;)

[julianm]

Yeh think i've been more than patient so far.
Let you know how it goes.

[ini]

I ended up removing my dragon tuning box because it slowly retarded my timing.

[Eshrules]

I ended up removing my dragon tuning box because it slowly retarded my timing.

how'd it do that? your timing is based on the position of the cams, all relative to each other, brought together by that wonderful timing belt?

[ini]

It caused fuel injection timing to be retarded at the pump.

Seems to be a common problem with long term use.

The box was an old analogue version.

[Eshrules]

It caused fuel injection timing to be retarded at the pump.

Seems to be a common problem with long term use.

The box was an old analogue version.

im still confused :(

[julianm]

Can any of you guys/gals tell me if the EGR solenoid is the same part as the boost control solenoid??
Both mine have part no. 1JO 906 627

[ini]

Not the valve timing, or static mechanical injection timing. The adaptation advance/retard injection timing, which allows the injection timing to be altered 'on the fly'.

There is a device in the pump that can advance or retard the injection timing, depending on engine load/conditions etc.

The tuning box, even though it was causing more fuel to be injected, was gradually making the ECU try and retard the injection timing.

[ini]

The boost control/pressure converter/N75 valve will have a suffix (1JO 906 627 A).

The EGR control valve will normally just be 1JO 906 627

Not sure about the setup for the 115PD, but the EGR on mine has 1 less outlet.

You can find your pierburg part Number here:

http://www.msi-motor-service.com/download/pg_gesamtkatalog/data/pg_volkswagen_web.pdf

Dealer to Pierburg cross-reference list:

http://www.msi-motor-service.com/download/pg_gesamtkatalog/data/pg_zz01_refoeksnr_web.pdf

[julianm]

Thanks for that mate its looking as though the EGR solenoid is the cause of the error code and i'm wondering if someone has had trouble /swapped it previously as some of the cable shielding is missing.
:beerchug:

[julianm]

It's been a couple of weeks (over 500 miles) now since fitting a replacement EGR control valve.
My car no longer goes into limp mode and pulls really well from 1500 rpm all through the range.Torque is greatly improved (if a bit savage in lower gears) power delivery is otherwise very smooth,mpg about the same maybe slightly better.
I can't qualify the claimed increase in bhp (20%) without suitable test equipment but it feels about right.There is a slight increase in exhaust smoke.
The power box does what it says on the box as far as i can tell.
A big thanks to those of you who helped diagnose problem/identify parts etc.:beerchug:
Cider's good !;)